King Dom Miguel I of Brazil - An Absolutist Brazil Wank

[unprincipled peter]

She was actually raised as an absolutist, she didnt change at all
It was IOTL where she became a constitutionalist for her husband, not the other way around

I agree, but her political actions indicate a moderate/liberal leaning. Indeed, she came from an absolutist/conservative background, but she switched sides pretty quickly. Pedro had an absolutist part of him, too, but she didn't appear to work at that side of him. Perhaps she was an opportunist who could read a room and mold herself to gain the best advantage. Thus, if her alt husband, Miguel, is conservative/absolutist, she would aid him competently in working toward that outcome. I can talk myself into thinking this is not so magical, but more pragmatic.

 

[holycookie]

I agree, but her political actions indicate a moderate/liberal leaning. I can talk myself into thinking this is not so magical, but more pragmatic.

This could be a positive, with the royal couple striking a balance between absolutism and liberalism.

 

[John I of Brazil]

Leopoldina (who also conveniently changes to absolutism)

I agree, but her political actions indicate a moderate/liberal leaning. Indeed, she came from an absolutist/conservative background, but she switched sides pretty quickly. Pedro had an absolutist part of him, too, but she didn't appear to work at that side of him. Perhaps she was an opportunist who could read a room and mold herself to gain the best advantage. Thus, if her alt husband, Miguel, is conservative/absolutist, she would aid him competently in working toward that outcome. I can talk myself into thinking this is not so magical, but more pragmatic.

I've read a biography about Leopoldina by Paulo Rezzutti, which used both many historians and also her letters as sources. Based on that, it seems she was originally a very traditional absolutist, but she was also pragmatic enough to cede and adopt some aspects of liberalism for the royal/imperial family's well-being and status. So we can picture her as a conservative, but pragmatic and smart leader who can compromise in some ways if necessary.

 

[Belka DNW]

I've read a biography about Leopoldina by Paulo Rezzutti, which used both many historians and also her letters as sources. Based on that, it seems she was originally a very traditional absolutist, but she was also pragmatic enough to cede and adopt some aspects of liberalism for the royal/imperial family's well-being and status. So we can picture her as a conservative, but pragmatic and smart leader who can compromise in some ways if necessary.

So she could be a moderating figure in Miguel's life?

 

[Godhand Void]

OTL, Joao was powerless, even in Brazil. Hence, he was forced to return to Portugal.

Thanks, bro! But I don't know if this specifically was exactly the case. It seems to me that João balked away from the conflict with the Cortes, but that was his personal decision, he was never a man of conflict, and it was never his intention to stay in Brazil forever. Nonetheless, it doesn't seem like they could so easily get him by force had he chosen to resist, to say the least, considering the Brazilian elites insisted on having Pedro as Prince Regent as a guarantee against the Cortes even before the recolonization attempt was fully enacted. I would never say he was powerless in Brazil, he just felt weak in comparison to the metropole, but I don't think they would try to do like they did with Pedro during the Dia do Fico. Pedro was, at the eyes of the Divisão Auxiliadora (Rio's Garrison) a brat who was defying not only the Cortes and the metropole but his own father the King, who had already returned, so they tried to capture and force him back. But I don't see them doing this with João or even with Miguel, kings in their own right, specially under the declared intention of going back to Portugal, if only without a constitution.

And even if this were the case, the death of Pedro at the hands of the liberal pernambucans would probably explain a general change in alignment at least in Brazil, considering this did motivate João to crack down on the Brazilian liberals ITTL. The death of a prince heir at the hands of revolutionaries would affect even moderate constitutional monarchist liberals, and would surely serve to sway the heads of the garrisons.

 

[holycookie]

The death of a prince heir at the hands of revolutionaries would affect even moderate constitutional monarchist liberals, and would surely serve to sway the heads of the garrisons.

It will probably be a dirty word for a few decades. With the dispute being between the absolutists and the constitutionalists for control in the country. As a whole country being absolutist like Russia is impossible, but the country does not need to be a true democracy. As a whole, Miguel, whether he likes it or not, will have to give part of the power to Congress. But he may have the same power in the long run as the Kaiser had in Germany (much more than the emperors had in OTL). A kaiser-like power is probably the best compromise in long term. Culturally the country will probably be much more conservative so forget about things like the decriminalization of homosexuality in the 1830's. Culturally the country will probably be seen as reactionarily Catholic.

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

Really be loving this TL and super interested in seeing where this goes, hopefully Brazil can take more land like Mesopotamia from Argentina as well as taking over Bolivia(as during the independence wars, one of the royalist governors attempted to join Bolivia with Brazil in the hopes the monarchy would let him keep his station, something I think Miguel wound enjoy).


Also with Miguel being on the throne and living a long life like OTL, Don Pedro II can actually enjoys his childhood here before being thrust into the throne, something I imagine will have wonderful impacts on Brazil.


Really hoping that Miguel will be able to industrialize the country as well to keep up with demand and arm his own country, he will surely need when the time comes to deal with the large slaveowners

 

[Herohunter]

Really be loving this TL and super interested in seeing where this goes, hopefully Brazil can take more land like Mesopotamia from Argentina as well as taking over Bolivia(as during the independence wars, one of the royalist governors attempted to join Bolivia with Brazil in the hopes the monarchy would let him keep his station, something I think Miguel wound enjoy).

First of all Bolivia did not make that offer, it’s colonial predecessor of upper Peru did and even then it was just a few conservative colonials officials looking to avoid a revolutionary government.

Even if they still give the offer and Miguel accepts and the government does not explode immediately in a revolution, Brazil is in no position to fight endless local rebellions or an invasion by the Grand Colombian army. At best Miguel and bolivar decide to split the place between Peru and Brazil.

Also with Miguel being on the throne and living a long life like OTL, Don Pedro II can actually enjoys his childhood here before being thrust into the throne, something I imagine will have wonderful impacts on Brazil.

Don Pedro II does not exist. Assuming Dona Maria Leopoldina still produces the same Ovum that produced Pedro II, that egg would have been fertilized by Miguel’s sperm not Pedro’s. (Unless Pedro was a bastard but that’s even more unlikely)

besides it was mentioned that Miguel’s first child will succeed him and Pedro was not Maria’s first child (that would be João Carlos Pedro Leopoldo Borromeo)

Really hoping that Miguel will be able to industrialize the country as well to keep up with demand and arm his own country,

Lots of reason why Brazilian industry will be stronger.
-is raising tariffs on British and Iberian goods allowing Brazilian and other forgin good the ability to compete.
-banning the slave trade and not letting it become a massive illegal smuggling industry lots of people would have invest there money into (because it can’t be taxed)
-Keeping a good reputation with European monarchies (other then the Iberian ones) by not neglecting his well connected Hapsburg wife will make getting investments and trade deals easier.
-avoiding the chaos of the regency era will also help.

 

[Aluma]

Don Pedro II does not exist. Assuming Dona Maria Leopoldina still produces the same Ovum that produced Pedro II, that egg would have been fertilized by Miguel’s sperm not Pedro’s. (Unless Pedro was a bastard but that’s even more unlikely)

I think he was refering to Miguel II

 

[holycookie]

First of all Bolivia did not make that offer, it’s colonial predecessor of upper Peru did and even then it was just a few conservative colonials officials looking to avoid a revolutionary government.

First of all, Bolivia as a country did not exist. The governors of the region made the offer out of fear of massacres and chaos that could occur on the part of bolivar.

Even if they still give the offer and Miguel accepts and the government does not explode immediately in a revolutio

which did not happen at otl when the brazilian army occupied upper peru

n, Brazil is in no position to fight endless local rebellions or an invasion by the Grand Colombian army.

in fact it was, so much so that the Brazilian troops prevented the advance of gran colombia. With Bolivar almost declaring war on Brazil but being convinced by his generals that it was a very bad idea. Because any war between Gran Colombia and Brazil would primarily take place at sea where Brazil had an absolute advantage.

At best Miguel and bolivar decide to split the place between Peru and Brazil.

it's a possibility.

 

[Herohunter]

First of all, Bolivia as a country did not exist.

Yes that was implied with the word predecessor

The governors of the region made the offer out of fear of massacres and chaos that could occur on the part of bolivar.

Ok but would the common people have accepted that? Maybe they would have under Pedro who was a known liberal and had implemented reforms in Brazil while he was regent, but Miguel would have a totally different reputation and would reject an upper Peruvian Constitution, he would probably dislike the message such a state would raise among regionalists desiring the decentralization of Brazil.

I would not be surprised if Rio de la plata and Gran Colombia try to demonize Miguel and Brazil as a reactionary autocratic state looking to gorged themselves on Spanish speaking peoples.

which did not happen at otl when the brazilian army occupied upper peru

Yes but the Brazilian army was not sent there to enforce Pedro’s rule as monarch

in fact it was, so much so that the Brazilian troops prevented the advance of gran colombia. With Bolivar almost declaring war on Brazil but being convinced by his generals that it was a very bad idea. Because any war between Gran Colombia and Brazil would primarily take place at sea where Brazil had an absolute advantage.

And with Brazil “losing” against the Iberians maybe Bolivar will try his luck.

it's a possibility.

What what they would call the place, upper Peru is not sensible, Brazilian Peru maybe, or Miguelia if we want to emulate Simone bolivar in naming the region

 

[Aluma]

Miguelia

If not a conquered land I hope this becomes the name of a future capital, its too good

 

[unprincipled peter]

Thanks, bro! But I don't know if this specifically was exactly the case. It seems to me that João balked away from the conflict with the Cortes, but that was his personal decision, he was never a man of conflict, and it was never his intention to stay in Brazil forever. Nonetheless, it doesn't seem like they could so easily get him by force had he chosen to resist, to say the least, considering the Brazilian elites insisted on having Pedro as Prince Regent as a guarantee against the Cortes even before the recolonization attempt was fully enacted. I would never say he was powerless in Brazil, he just felt weak in comparison to the metropole, but I don't think they would try to do like they did with Pedro during the Dia do Fico. Pedro was, at the eyes of the Divisão Auxiliadora (Rio's Garrison) a brat who was defying not only the Cortes and the metropole but his own father the King, who had already returned, so they tried to capture and force him back. But I don't see them doing this with João or even with Miguel, kings in their own right, specially under the declared intention of going back to Portugal, if only without a constitution.

And even if this were the case, the death of Pedro at the hands of the liberal pernambucans would probably explain a general change in alignment at least in Brazil, considering this did motivate João to crack down on the Brazilian liberals ITTL. The death of a prince heir at the hands of revolutionaries would affect even moderate constitutional monarchist liberals, and would surely serve to sway the heads of the garrisons.

it's my understanding that Joao loathed returning to Portugal, and first tried to get Pedro to return in his place. No one was having any part of this.

The navy/military sided with the Cortes. Hence, Joao was forced to return.

Brazil wanted to retain their new found status, while at the same time wanting to be rid of the huge Portuguese influx of the last 10 years. That huge group of Portuguese (mainly settled in the Rio area) left town with the King. You haven't said what happened with them here. IF they stayed, which is likely, as there was no exodus of the Court, Brazil will see problems between Brazilian born, and Portuguese born (who are going to be torn between their home country of birth, where any holdings left behind are subject to seizure, and their newfound position in Brazil)

It's a possibility that Pedro's death can change Joao's standing, and I can accept it for the sake of the wank. Pedro appears to have died from combat. I doubt this is going to spark some huge anti republican wave of sentiment. Certainly, it might cause Joao's gov't to crack down hard, but this is just as likely to fan the flames as it is to put out the fire. It won't change any loyalty to mother Portugal on the part of troops. An assassination might have an effect, but dying from combat will lead to thoughts of "stupid kid went off and got himself killed, long live the next in line". OTL, Pedro had to do some traveling to sell himself as the man to lead Brazil into independence. Other than an ingrained sense of loyalty to him simply because of his birth, he wasn't some universally loved character, except perhaps in Rio, where he had some familiarity. Again, I accept the wank, simply because it's possible (although not probable), and wanks can be fun.

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

Yes that was implied with the word predecessor

Ok but would the common people have accepted that? Maybe they would have under Pedro who was a known liberal and had implemented reforms in Brazil while he was regent, but Miguel would have a totally different reputation and would reject an upper Peruvian Constitution, he would probably dislike the message such a state would raise among regionalists desiring the decentralization of Brazil.

I would not be surprised if Rio de la plata and Gran Colombia try to demonize Miguel and Brazil as a reactionary autocratic state looking to gorged themselves on Spanish speaking peoples.

Yes but the Brazilian army was not sent there to enforce Pedro’s rule as monarch

And with Brazil “losing” against the Iberians maybe Bolivar will try his luck.

What what they would call the place, upper Peru is not sensible, Brazilian Peru maybe, or Miguelia if we want to emulate Simone bolivar in naming the region

Tbh, Bolivia was very underpopulated, especially in the colonial times and especially with war going on, so any possible rebellion would be few in numbers in the first place to actually try and fight against it.

That is indeed true but Miguel would also have at least the support of a few governors who would keep their positions under him, not to mention the fact he would need at least some loyal local elements to keep control of the region.


I don't think Bolivar would take the risk tbh, Brazil still has a bigger navy while Gran Colombia has none, Brazil has a shorter supply line thanks to control of Grão Pará, Belém and Manaus, meaning they can use the Amazon river in order to arrive in the region, not to mention using Mato Grosso and it's rivers as another place to land troops while Bolivar has to go through mountains something that will exhaust his army, especially the high altitude atmosphere in them. Another thing to notice that it was Gran Colombia itself funding his combat in the region and in OTL they were already pretty critical of him going off to liberate the region, if Bolivar declares war against Brazil (who can still hit their main cities like Caracas and Cartagena with their navy), they could actually refuse to fund his army further since this actually threatens the homeland, so Brazil could win with just a few declarations of battle.

 

[Herohunter]

If not a conquered land I hope this becomes the name of a future capital, its too good

I was never convinced moving the Capital from Rio to the interior was a good idea.

meaning they can use the Amazon river in order to arrive in the region,

That river is not very navigable and any force that uses it will probably be to disease ridden to do anything .

 

[unprincipled peter]

Brazil has a shorter supply line thanks to control of Grão Pará, Belém and Manaus, meaning they can use the Amazon river in order to arrive in the region, not to mention using Mato Grosso and it's rivers as another place to land troops while Bolivar has to go through mountains something that will exhaust his army, especially the high altitude atmosphere in them

Brazil has an easier time getting to a border. Unfortunately, that border is still in the middle of nowhere, and it is a tough trail to get anywhere. And, it isn't short/easy to get there from the populated regions of Brazil. For any practical purposes, Brazil is isolated from all neighbors except Argentina. That still is pretty much true today.

 

[Kurd Gossemer]

I was never convinced moving the Capital from Rio to the interior was a good idea.

That river is not very navigable and any force that uses it will probably be to disease ridden to do anything .

They still have Mato Grosso however and with control of Cisplatina/Banda Oriental, they'll have an easier time moving troops into it

 

[holycookie]

For any practical purposes, Brazil is isolated from all neighbors except Argentina. That still is pretty much true today.

Well, I would say that in addition to Argentina, the country has close relations with Uruguay and Paraguay. In Bolivia the relationship is weak and normally not very good. Acre was taken over from them and our current border with bolivia is larger than in ITTL because the empire during dom pedro II basically bullied bolivia until they accepted a change in the border. These are the 4 countries Brazil cares about in Latin America (besides Chile to a lesser extent, above Bolivia but below the rest).

 

[holycookie]

Ok but would the common people have accepted that?

Probably, there is not a big change between Brazil and Spain. They will probably be able to invest more in the region and having to send less to the metropolis, in addition to maintaining its current independence (as viceroyalty) due to the distance. The only difference will be that instead of some spanish troops in the region they will have some brazilian clothes. What would be good preventing the partition of bolivia that occurred in the otl. With all the neighbors (including Brazil) taking away the most valuable pieces of the country.

Maybe they would have under Pedro who was a known liberal and had implemented reforms in Brazil while he was regent, but Miguel would have a totally different reputation and would reject an upper Peruvian Constitution, he would probably dislike the message such a state would raise among regionalists desiring the decentralization of Brazil.

they did not choose brazil because pedro was liberal, but because the country was a monarchy in addition to being the only country that had the strength to prevent the expansion of bolivar. Regarding the constitution, probably they will maintain a viceroyalty, which doesn't change much.

I would not be surprised if Rio de la plata and Gran Colombia try to demonize Miguel and Brazil as a reactionary autocratic state looking to gorged themselves on Spanish speaking peoples.

They already did that at otl with Pedro. With Miguel, the intensity will be greater. In a way they weren't wrong, imperial Brazil was a state looking to gorge itself on Spanish speaking peoples. The greatest period of war in the Plata region takes place during the empire (the wars against Argentina, Uruguay's independence, the Paraguayan war, etc.). Rio de la plata and Gran Colombia hated each other, the situation is complicated.

Yes but the Brazilian army was not sent there to enforce Pedro’s rule as monarch

yes it means that alto peru is at war with gran colombia. I do not doubt the possibility of the country being partitioned between its neighbors (Chile, Argentina, Brazil and Gran Colombia/Peru) in a Polish way.

And with Brazil “losing” against the Iberians maybe Bolivar will try his luck.

Bolivia in this case is being conquered by bolivar, this will force chile, argentina and brazil to invade part of the territory to have a buffer zone with bolivar.

What what they would call the place, upper Peru is not sensible, Brazilian Peru maybe, or Miguelia if we want to emulate Simone bolivar in naming the region

perhaps a local name or a saint's name?

 

[Mildtryth]

What what they would call the place, upper Peru is not sensible, Brazilian Peru maybe, or Miguelia if we want to emulate Simone bolivar in naming the region

Charcas, maybe?