Wrapped in Flames: The Great American War and Beyond

[HMS St.Lawrence]

I'm curious to see what kind of impact this mess will have on the Home Rule issue.

To gain at least some positive consequences out of this pointless dying would make for a great change.

 

[MonarchistCanuck]

I wonder, if Home Rule happens earlier what effect it has on Irish independence? Is an independent Irish republic an inevitability by this point in time? Or is there the possibility for an Irish Dominion that stays in the Empire/Commonwealth?

 

[ProgressiveIsraelFan]

As an aside, the author of Nothing For Which To Apologize has been banned and the story has apparently been discontinued

For what?

 

[SultanArda]

For what?

I think trolling.
He was banned in the political chat, which I remember that also caused him to be kicked.
(I am very sad that Dcharleos is banned. Always liked him, and he was banned, with me not even being able to learn the end of his JFK Jr story, as he promised me to send his plans, if he didn’t do a wrap up for the story in Christmas)

 

[DarkAvenger]

On the topic of the US being a shining beacon on the hill that was mentioned earlier, I feel that the New Men would be anathema to it since they are revanchist and harbour imperialistic ambitions. That's why I suspect that post-Great War, they are largely discredited and reviled as they dragged the US into the war and they lost to the Entente. Then the US is broken up by the victorious powers with an independent West, central US is split between newly independent states like Utah, Canada and the CS, while the rump US east of the Mississippi is a British puppet until reunification of some of the US states in the 1960s, furthering their bad reputation by modern historians but allowing the reunified US to be a true land of the free.

After all, the only way for TTL Canada to be safe in the long term is the utter destruction of the US as an independent entity and Britain can be the uncontested superpower with Russia and France as close seconds.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

I'm curious to see what kind of impact this mess will have on the Home Rule issue.

To gain at least some positive consequences out of this pointless dying would make for a great change.

The mess will mean that, while Palmerston in his old age will want to bring the club down, his successors might not feel that a tighter grip is worth it. Gladstone was a very practical man OTL, and he's going to be gunning for leadership of the Liberal Party.

I wonder, if Home Rule happens earlier what effect it has on Irish independence? Is an independent Irish republic an inevitability by this point in time? Or is there the possibility for an Irish Dominion that stays in the Empire/Commonwealth?

The issue of Home Rule will still rear it's head, however, with the British being a bit allergic to killing people post-1867 OTL (and here too, I must stress, which will also have interesting issues) there will be overall less overt hostility by 1900. However, the sectarian divide between the north and south is still real. That issue is one that I think would have an impact on any Dominion of Ireland. However, depending on how Britain's plans to implement the alt-Dominion scheme in the rest of the white settler colonies goes, I think that's what they will end up attempting to do in Ireland itself. Whether than survives the sectarian factionalism though...

 

[EnglishCanuck]

On the topic of the US being a shining beacon on the hill that was mentioned earlier, I feel that the New Men would be anathema to it since they are revanchist and harbour imperialistic ambitions. That's why I suspect that post-Great War, they are largely discredited and reviled as they dragged the US into the war and they lost to the Entente. Then the US is broken up by the victorious powers with an independent West, central US is split between newly independent states like Utah, Canada and the CS, while the rump US east of the Mississippi is a British puppet until reunification of some of the US states in the 1960s, furthering their bad reputation by modern historians but allowing the reunified US to be a true land of the free.

Some interesting speculation on the New Men! You're going to start seeing them more once this recent crop of post Civil War politicians begins to fall out of power, and by at least the election of 1872 we'll see some of them begin to come out of the woodwork. Though you're correct they will have a very large impact on American history going forward. For better or for worse, well, I will let the readers decide in due time!

After all, the only way for TTL Canada to be safe in the long term is the utter destruction of the US as an independent entity and Britain can be the uncontested superpower with Russia and France as close seconds.

Oh I wouldn't say that. Canada doesn't need the US to be broken up to be safe, just have some bigger problems. The world come 1900 is going to be not quite so European dominated though...

 

[HMS St.Lawrence]

Gladstone was a very practical man OTL, and he's going to be gunning for leadership of the Liberal Party.

Dominion of Ireland

Oh boy, now we're talking!

 

[MonarchistCanuck]

The issue of Home Rule will still rear it's head, however, with the British being a bit allergic to killing people post-1867 OTL (and here too, I must stress, which will also have interesting issues) there will be overall less overt hostility by 1900. However, the sectarian divide between the north and south is still real. That issue is one that I think would have an impact on any Dominion of Ireland. However, depending on how Britain's plans to implement the alt-Dominion scheme in the rest of the white settler colonies goes, I think that's what they will end up attempting to do in Ireland itself. Whether than survives the sectarian factionalism though...

That's some interesting potential butterflies, it would be interesting to see how that sectarian divide impacts any potential Irish Dominion. Would we see an alt-Irish Civil War that's more multipolar, between not just Republicans and Loyalists but between Protestants and Catholics as well? Maybe they try to solve the issue by granting Ulster some form of autonomy within an Irish Dominion? Or would things pan out like an alt-Troubles? Many interesting directions this could go

 

[Icedaemon]

The failure of the OTL Fenians hardly scuppered the Irish independence movement, I doubt it will here either. The question is, will they get an opportunity like OTL to obtain their independence?

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Chapter 135: The Blood of Erin​

“The now joined British and Canadian force, absent the 13th Battalion, began marching on the Fenian position at Black Creek.

O’Neill had not been idle with his force. Fences had been torn down, shallow rifle pits dug, and his small pair of guns had been mounted at their most advantageous position. As George Denison III would write after the battle “It was clear by their preparations and dispositions this was no band of brigands, but a well trained veteran force.” He had roughly two dozen mounted men acting as scouts, and another 3,000 armed men who held the line. Facing him would be just over 4,000 Anglo-Canadians rapidly transported to the frontier by the night of June 4th.

Peacocke was unaware of the size of the Fenian force. Reports had laboriously filtered back and forth through the Fenian lines from civilians, detectives, and newspaper men who had traveled between the opposing camps between June 2nd and 4th. Some reports indicated as many as 10,000 Fenians, while others claimed as few as 1,500. By the morning of the 4th, the Fenians had at least stopped receiving reinforcements as the USS Michigan had finally interposed herself between Buffalo and Fort Erie. However, the Fenians had managed to bring over 4,000 across, and estimates held a further 2,000 had gathered in Buffalo, and were agitating to be allowed over to “get at the hated redcoats again” which caused considerable chagrin to local officials.

For all that the Anglo-Canadian force had gathered to strike the Fenians, with secure supplies in their rear and militia guarding the major points, O’Neill had failed to do the same. Roughly one thousand men were roaming the countryside seeking out the main body, and only some 400 men remained ‘on duty’ in Fort Erie, haphazardly guarding the river as the US Navy impotently looked on. It was going to depend on the day of battle itself to see the immediate outcome…

By this point almost every other Fenian assault had failed. Some 800 men had finally grown tired of Tevis’s inaction and crossed the Frontier at Sandwich, running straight into an equal number of Canadian militia. A paltry firefight had ensued, sending the Fenians fleeing across the border again in under fifteen minutes as neither side pressed their advantage.

Only near Prescott had the Fenians experience anything like success. Roughly 1,000 men had crossed the St. Lawrence River, landing near the old windmill that had served as the sight of the 1838 battle between the Patriot raiders and Canadian militia, capturing a small militia detachment after a short fight. They immediately marched towards Fort Wellington, with the militia and a company of regulars marching to meet them.

In the initial engagement near Chrysler’s Farm, the Fenians succeeded in driving the Canadians back. Their attempts to follow on June 3rd were hampered by their lack of logistics, the descent of Canadian gunboats and reinforcements, and the news that the United States Army had arrived on the other side of the river. Promptly a quarter of the force deserted, while the remainder kept on the path, coming up against the now much stronger Canadian force near Prescott.

Seeing that discretion was the better part of valor, and with no real way home, the Fenians surrendered and were taken into captivity…

June 4th opened with an artillery barrage on the Fenian position, with the Fenian guns firing back sporadically before being silenced by British field pieces. O’Neill’s men were not dug in deep enough to resist artillery, but the British barrage was aimed at the Fenian guns, and in a manner that it was hoped would demoralize the Fenians rather than destroy them. The Fenians though, were veterans from many battlefields, and it would take more than artillery to dislodge them.

Peacocke, believing the time had come, ordered his men to form up and advance…” - The Emergency of 1867, Howard Senior, 1986

“I cannot fault the tactical knowledge of Colonel Peacocke, he was a veteran of the War of 1862 and he had commanded his own men quite ably. We had no reason to believe this was anything less than a well armed band of freebooters. The way into the Fenian position had been, so it was reported, suppressed by artillery. Thus he ordered the advance.

In the next two hours, we would make two charges at the Fenians, and the combat was fierce. British and Canadian soldiers came to grapple with their foes. In many instances, I can verify, the fighting came down to hand to hand. These were not simple bandits, ready to flee at the first sign of resistance, this was a well motivated command under an able commander. Though the cavalry would not play a part that day, we were witnesses to the ordeal.

Without reservation I can say that the men of Canada and England fought well. We exchanged fire and blows with the enemy, but the enemy had chosen his position well. In time though, our advantage in firepower would tell. The Fenians began falling back in disciplined withdrawal, firing as they went. This was no route as the rebels had found at Tallaght Hill across the sea or a sullen withdrawal as at Eccles Hill only days earlier. It was a vicious repulse. But withdraw the enemy did.

It is merely to be regretted that it cost the lives of three hundred brave men with another four hundred casualties in such assaults!” - Soldiering In Canada, Recollections and Experiences of Brigadier General George T. Denison III, Toronto Press 1900

“...advance into Fort Erie almost uncontested. Skinner’s 800 men found Fenian guard parties, and in a brief skirmish of only an hour, had captured them. The short sharp fight to seize the town led to roughly 100 Fenian prisoners taken, with three dead for only two Canadian wounded. Skinner had carried out a difficult operation, one even against orders, and firmly cut the Fenians off from their retreat.

He now ordered the town defended, with small redoubts established along the rode, and tried to make contact with the column he knew would be proceeding from Thorold. Men were sent back to Port Colborne to summon reinforcements. He knew that there were more Fenians somewhere, but not where they were.

Little did he know that in his own short skirmish, hundreds of men were killing and dying but a few miles distant.

O’Neill’s retreat, while orderly, was handled under pressure. He knew now his only hope was to make it back to Fort Erie and, hopefully, extricate his forces so he could withdraw to Buffalo and then disperse his men. The great invasion of Canada had manifestly failed, and he had lost one hundred men already, minus the wounded an captured. A ragged column of 2,500 men marched back to Fort Erie, doggedly pursued by vengeful Anglo-Canadian forces. His last duty now was to withdraw and bring the brave men home, he felt.

To the great surprise of the Fenian forces, they encountered firing from Fort Erie. The British flag again flew over the settlement and men in red coats stood guard, waiting behind barricades as they watched the Fenian forces arrive. Skinner’s men were disheartened by the appearance of better than twice their number, but Skinner bravely walked the line and encouraged his boys calling them to “Take heart lads! We’ve whipped Yankees before!”

At the last, the exhausted Fenians hesitated. Many of them hanging back, while others moved to skirmish with the Canadians.

O’Neill now dreamt of one final stand to either break through, or to fight and die to distract the British in Canada as much as possible. Hynes however, managed to talk his commander out of a brazen last stand and convinced him that their men were exhausted. Most of their ammunition had been used up at the Battle of Black Creek, and they were now sandwiched between two forces. One smaller British force at the water’s edge, and finally the larger pursuing British column.

Relenting, O’Neill would instead choose to surrender his command, and his sword, to a slightly bewildered Skinner. O’Neill’s pride would not allow him to surrender to a proper British officer…

The Canadians now had nearly 4,000 prisoners, all of them American citizens. The question of what to do with them loomed large[1]…

Erin had been plying the coasts of the Bay of Fundy seizing fishing vessels for four days by the time she came upon the HMS Pylades. The ship had been patrolling the coasts since the year prior, tasked by Halifax with watching for more Fenian raids. The failure of the second cross border attack had only heightened the sudden awareness of the navy and Pylades was on alert.

She was sailing just along the international waters with Canada and the United States when it happened. Though we will never know what the Erin and her small crew were thinking, they approached the Pylades under the American flag. The presence of an American flagged vessel was not unusual, and Pylades merely moved along, signalling the crew of the Erin to be watchful. The Erin responded by pulling closer, which was deemed odd, but not startling.

Secret gunports snapped open and the Erin fired, shortly thereafter lowering the Stars and Stripes and raising the flag of the Irish Republic, the Fenian sunburst banner. Pylades crew, shocked, hesitated briefly until her captain bellowed them to battle stations. Men ran to their guns and the decks were cleared as Erin fired on. The sudden sea battle had broken out with intensity.

So far as we know the two ships were roughly evenly matched, but even with surprise, the Erin could not overcome the professionalism of the Pylades crew. In the hour long engagement, the Erin was less seaworthy, and Pylandes eventually outmanoeuvred the other vessel and began to pound her to splinters. The exact fate of the Erin is unknown, with her sinking being either the result of action, or the crew scuttling her to prevent her capture. In any event, no survivors were picked up, only half dead men fished from the water where they soon succumbed to their wounds.

As soon as Pylades made port, she telegraphed word of her battle to both Ottawa and London…

Despite some risings, the fighting in the Irish countryside had petered out by June 10th.​

The Shannon arrived off Cork under John Kavanagh on June 18th, intending to drop arms to the rebels and act as the basis for the new Fenian navy. Instead, she found the port bustling with British warships, and the Union Jack still flying high. Kavanagh, waiting offshore to see if fighting was still raging, did not wish to send men ashore. Lest the Royal Navy become suspicious, he waited for the next day to follow a fishing boat. Capturing the tiny vessel, he took the crew hostage and demanded news. They informed him the fighting had, largely, petered out.

Some fighting still erupted in the countryside, but the Fenians had largely been defeated. This news seemed to enrage Kavanagh, and he declared they would return to America, but first they would burn a British ship. The unfortunate fishermen were kept as hostages and their vessel sunk, while Kavanagh prowled the waters around Ireland.

The steamer Keogh was transiting across to Cardiff when Shannon encountered her. The Fenian crew proclaimed her a prize of the Irish Navy before setting the crew adrift and sinking the Keogh. The Irish owned vessel and mostly Irish crew, naturally, took a dim view of their supposed liberators and as soon as they were back to shore immediately reported the incident to the navy. Incidentally, the ships off Cork had been looking for the lost fishermen and when they turned up with the crew of the Keogh, sortied and gave chase to the “Irish pirates” as the press dubbed them.

The pursuit was swift, and despite able sailing, the Shannon was soon sighted and captured when the crew realized they could not outrun the pursuing British frigates. Seized and sailed back to Cork, Kavanagh and his men were interned, but soon learned that they would not be so lucky as the crew of the St. Patrick. They had seized British shipping in British waters and carried destruction to her shores, all while not being protected as combatants. They would be charged as pirates, a sentence that carried the death penalty[2]…” - The Emergency of 1867, Howard Senior, 1986

-----

1] Indeed the now looming question of what to do with a few thousand filibusters?

2] This would have been the fate of American or Confederate privateers OTL. The agreement of European nations to ban the practice of privateering effectively made anyone who participated in the practice a pirate. Some Confederates were interned in Capetown OTL because they tried this, but were ultimately let go because their officers were commissioned belligerents. They just didn't have a ship anymore. Kavanagh and his men won't be so lucky...

 

[EnglishCanuck]

And that's it for the violence in the Crisis of 1867! Three guesses where we go from here!

I'll be responding to more speculation tomorrow!

 

[Nenshou Yuuki]

And now the aftermath as Britain is left with the conundrum of what to do with literal thousands of American prisoners. They'll be some political figures and a public uproar, potentially calls for the army to go and free their boys. Canada is gonna want vengeance for the third time they've been invaded by the US. And McClellan is not the man for the job right now.

 

[Nightstorm86]

Wow McLellan presidency is like whole a cavalcade of screw-ups that future historians are gonna question how did the us survive him and his successor cause this is an absolute trash fire soaked in tar and feathers of a term that's only comparable to Buchanans presidency to which i qoute Simon whistler of biographics "... Is like watching a clown car filled with nitroglycerin slowly roll towards an orphanage." But faster and also seeing that there's another car filled with uranium speeding towards a school for the blind.

Which I'm gonna guess gotta add extra fuel for the Republicans to parrot about how better they are and i think there's going to be a big republican wave that will take the state level and will initiate the fall McClellan and the rise of his successor which will bring the end of the democrats as a whole with two administration of 4 years of failure that were democrat lead.

3 if you include Buchanan that started this whole mess in the first place damn future historians are gonna be looking back at the democrats as the party that lead America to its darkest hour and that Lincoln was the one who tried to stem the tide and stop it from happening but the dems won lead it down to the bottom.

 

[DarkAvenger]

Except that they won't. The next President is going to be worse than McClellan and likely the one who passes the Cursed Amendment. With this and the subsequent President, I don't think even the New Men can save the US. What we are seeing is the slow decline of the US followed by its fall and collapse after the Great War and it's reunification in the 1960s. The only consolation is that the CS probably goes first before the US collapses except many people would die as it happens.

 

[Icedaemon]

Well, so much for that. The eventual fate of the prisoners is going to be interesting, definitely. If the punishments are too severe, British-American relations are liable to get even worse, which at this point would mean more shooting and more death. If the punishments are mere slaps on the wrist, it would anger many people in Britain and especially Canada.

The steamer Keogh was transiting across to Cardiff when Shannon encountered her. The Fenian crew proclaimed her a prize of the Irish Navy before setting the crew adrift and sinking the Keogh. The Irish owned vessel and mostly Irish crew, naturally, took a dim view of their supposed liberators and as soon as they were back to shore immediately reported the incident to the navy. Incidentally, the ships off Cork had been looking for the lost fishermen and when they turned up with the crew of the Keogh, sortied and gave chase to the “Irish pirates” as the press dubbed them.

The pursuit was swift, and despite able sailing, the Keogh was soon sighted and captured when the crew realized they could not outrun the pursuing British frigates. Seized and sailed back to Cork, Kavanagh and his men were interned, but soon learned that they would not be so lucky as the crew of the St. Patrick. They had seized British shipping in British waters and carried destruction to her shores, all while not being protected as combatants. They would be charged as pirates, a sentence that carried the death penalty[2]…” - The Emergency of 1867, Howard Senior, 1986

The last paragraph seemed odd to me, unless as I believe the highlighted mention of Keogh is supposed to be of the Shannon? Or am I not understanding something?

 

[PaulJones202718]

This is where questioning the wisdom comes into play: not wanting a big war with the Union is going to make London do things Ottawa doesn't want done.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

That's some interesting potential butterflies, it would be interesting to see how that sectarian divide impacts any potential Irish Dominion. Would we see an alt-Irish Civil War that's more multipolar, between not just Republicans and Loyalists but between Protestants and Catholics as well? Maybe they try to solve the issue by granting Ulster some form of autonomy within an Irish Dominion? Or would things pan out like an alt-Troubles? Many interesting directions this could go

There are indeed! Much is going to depend on how Ireland is treated moving into the 20th century and whether Britain brings the heel of subjugation down, or whether they try to mollify the Irish people in the next few decades. That said, with the longer living Lord Palmerston, that may be something of a forgone conclusion in the immediate future...

In the long run, with Gladstone hoping to ascend to the top ranks of the Liberal Party, he was a man who wanted more for the Irish and to adopt a more conciliatory tone. If he can use his great abilities to do so, he could nudge along the issue of Home Rule.

The failure of the OTL Fenians hardly scuppered the Irish independence movement, I doubt it will here either. The question is, will they get an opportunity like OTL to obtain their independence?

That is indeed the question! Undoubted is that OTL Britain scuppered any national feeling they might have engendered by executing the leaders of the Easter Rising, leading to a sense that the Irish would not be treated fairly. Here, they may, just may, be able to propose a political solution in the next fifty years.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

And now the aftermath as Britain is left with the conundrum of what to do with literal thousands of American prisoners. They'll be some political figures and a public uproar, potentially calls for the army to go and free their boys. Canada is gonna want vengeance for the third time they've been invaded by the US. And McClellan is not the man for the job right now.

Oh no he is not! That he does not even understand just how deep the roots of the collusion his government participated in is certainly a damning indictment (as though more were needed) of his control over the nation. The left hand has no clue there even is a right hand in this case! He's soon going to be facing popular outrage that will have a bipartisan issue.

Wow McLellan presidency is like whole a cavalcade of screw-ups that future historians are gonna question how did the us survive him and his successor cause this is an absolute trash fire soaked in tar and feathers of a term that's only comparable to Buchanans presidency to which i qoute Simon whistler of biographics "... Is like watching a clown car filled with nitroglycerin slowly roll towards an orphanage." But faster and also seeing that there's another car filled with uranium speeding towards a school for the blind.

Which I'm gonna guess gotta add extra fuel for the Republicans to parrot about how better they are and i think there's going to be a big republican wave that will take the state level and will initiate the fall McClellan and the rise of his successor which will bring the end of the democrats as a whole with two administration of 4 years of failure that were democrat lead.

3 if you include Buchanan that started this whole mess in the first place damn future historians are gonna be looking back at the democrats as the party that lead America to its darkest hour and that Lincoln was the one who tried to stem the tide and stop it from happening but the dems won lead it down to the bottom.

Generally yes. McClellan has made a load of unforced errors, from the Louisville Convention to now, it's a string of overconfidence and misunderstanding his own political coalition. That is, to be frank, also fraying the unity of the Democratic Party itself who are going to have internal challengers who don't agree with anyone that even minutely supports McClellan. That has the potential to create a split as deep as the one between the Republicans and the Radicals.

But generally, the next 8 years of Democratic rule will be viewed as some of the worst in American history, the small bright spots notwithstanding.

 

[EnglishCanuck]

Except that they won't. The next President is going to be worse than McClellan and likely the one who passes the Cursed Amendment. With this and the subsequent President, I don't think even the New Men can save the US. What we are seeing is the slow decline of the US followed by its fall and collapse after the Great War and it's reunification in the 1960s. The only consolation is that the CS probably goes first before the US collapses except many people would die as it happens.

I think you're taking those alternate histories a wee bit too literally. Generally one could make the argument that the US has already collapsed with the Confederacy becoming independent. But that would be a touch hyperbolic. However, the United States of WiF is not on track to become the global hegemon it became OTL that's for certain. There's plenty more internal divides that will trouble the North.