WI: Cyril and Methodius convert the Khazars to Christianity

[some kind of chimp]

Around 850-860, the famous brothers Cyril and Methodius (of Cyrillic fame) made their first journey. This was through Crimea to the Khanate of Khazaria, a Jewish state in OTL Ukraine. They succeeded in converting hundreds to Christianity after several sermons. By 861 they had made their way to the Khazar capital of Itil / Astrakhan. Once there, they attempted to convert the Khazar khan Zachariah to Christianity. There was also a legendary debate between Christians, Jews, and Muslims around this time.

IOTL Cyril and Methodius failed, leading to a continued Jewish Khazaria.

But what if the brothers had been successful, converting Zachariah to Christianity? He would make it the state religion, ushering in a Christianized Khazaria tied closely to Constantinople. As the brothers devised a Slavic-based alphabet IOTL, perhaps ITTL they would use the Khazar script (or even Hebrew, widely used in Khazaria) as the liturgical language. This would have rammifications on Europe - no Cyrillian missions in Moravia, and by extension Bohemia and Poland (extensive IOTL in both). Probably Christian Rus and Volga Bulgars, etc.

Any thoughts?

Any thoughts?

 

[yourworstnightmare]

The Jews would have one less legend to tell.

 

[Nikephoros]

The Jews would have one less legend to tell.

You mean the Khazars being the ancestors of the Ashkenazi, that myth?

I'm pretty sure that Jewish people don't push that one.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

And the stories of the wisdom of the Khazar king.

 

[some kind of chimp]

The Jews would have one less legend to tell.

Any thoughts on what would actually happen ITTL though.

You mean the Khazars being the ancestors of the Ashkenazi, that myth?

I'm pretty sure that Jewish people don't push that one.

Pretty much now one does besides Arther Koestler, author of the book which seriously posited that Ashkenazi are the main descendants of Khazars. But while there is some Khazar genetic influence in the Ashkenazim, they are a very minor part.

 

[CanadianGoose]

Christianity would not be happy with selective conversion of ruling elite the way Judaism was IOTL. Therefore it would be safe to assume that:
1) whole Khazaria would convert in next 2-3 decades;
2) Bohemians would fall under Roman Catholic authority;
3) Some kind of Altaic alphabet would appear (it would be a boon for Turkic and other Altaic languages, as none of existing alphabets possess enough letter to adequately describe Altaic sounds, both Romanization and Cyrillization sucks).
(1) would probably mean very different relationships between Russia and christianity. I'm not sure that Khazarian conversion would butterfly Svyatoslav away, so he's still bound to destroy Khazars approximately a century after their conversion. It would likely turn him into mortal enemy of Eastern Orthodox Christianity. What would happen next? His son Vladimir isn't likely to convert Rus into Eastern Orthodoxy and would likely keep pagan tradition (he tried to "reform" Russian paganism IOTL before conversion). Approximately another century later, once Roman Catholic Church spread through Baltic (or at least part of Baltic which likes to call itself "Civilized"), Rus is likely to convert to Catholic faigh
(2) could lead to Orthodox Christian Poland Mind you, this is almost ASB, but Mieszko had very rocky relationships with HRE and could pick "other" branch of Christianity just to "stick it to the Germans".

 

[some kind of chimp]

Christianity would not be happy with selective conversion of ruling elite the way Judaism was IOTL. Therefore it would be safe to assume that:
1) whole Khazaria would convert in next 2-3 decades;
2) Bohemians would fall under Roman Catholic authority;
3) Some kind of Altaic alphabet would appear (it would be a boon for Turkic and other Altaic languages, as none of existing alphabets possess enough letter to adequately describe Altaic sounds, both Romanization and Cyrillization sucks).

I agree with all of these points - a Christian Khazar with its own alphabet launching significant missionary efforts towards its populace.

(1) would probably mean very different relationships between Russia and christianity. I'm not sure that Khazarian conversion would butterfly Svyatoslav away, so he's still bound to destroy Khazars approximately a century after their conversion. It would likely turn him into mortal enemy of Eastern Orthodox Christianity. What would happen next? His son Vladimir isn't likely to convert Rus into Eastern Orthodoxy and would likely keep pagan tradition (he tried to "reform" Russian paganism IOTL before conversion). Approximately another century later, once Roman Catholic Church spread through Baltic (or at least part of Baltic which likes to call itself "Civilized"), Rus is likely to convert to Catholic faigh

AFAIK the Rus expanded due to Byzantine Christianization efforts, which stemmed from the failure to convert the Khazars. With that successful ITTL, it could mean that there is no Christianization of the Rus' in 863, no fall of the Rus' Khaganate, and no Rurikids. A very different Russia, and no Sviatoslav.

(2) could lead to Orthodox Christian Poland Mind you, this is almost ASB, but Mieszko had very rocky relationships with HRE and could pick "other" branch of Christianity just to "stick it to the Germans".

I remember reading somewhere that Orthodox missionaries from Moravia made significant headway in Poland (or at least the area of the Vistulans). So an Orthodox Poland is not too implausible ITTL IMO.

 

[Dan1988]

3) Some kind of Altaic alphabet would appear (it would be a boon for Turkic and other Altaic languages, as none of existing alphabets possess enough letter to adequately describe Altaic sounds, both Romanization and Cyrillization sucks).

Hmm, let's see what I can do with Old Church Slavonic. It shouldn't be as bad as, say, Chuvash (but that's because Chuvash uses a variant of the Russian Cyrillic alphabet, not the OCS version).

 

[Dan1988]

Here's Chuvash using OCS alphabet (and which could be very easily modified for Khazar):

А, а [a]
Б, б [p]⁺
В, в [v]
Г, г [k]⁺
Д, д [t]⁺
Є, є [ɛ]
Ж, ж [ʃ]⁺
Ѕ, ѕ [ʂ]⁺
З, з [ʂ]⁺
И, и
І, і *
Ї, ї *
К, к [k]
Л, л [l]
М, м [m]
Н, н [n]
О, о [ɔ]*
П, п [p]
Р, р [r]
С, с [ʂ]
Т, т [t]
ОУ, ѹ , [w]
Ф, ф [f]
Х, х [χ]
Ц, ц [ʂ]*
Ч, ч [ʧ]
Ш, ш [ʃ]
Щ, щ [ʃt]*
Ѡ, ѡ [ɔ]*
Ъ, ъ [ɯ]
Ы, ы [y]*
Ь, ь Soft sign
Ѣ, ѣ [ɛ]*
Ю, ю [ju]
ІА, ιа [ja]
Ѥ, ѥ [jɛ]
Ѧ, ѧ [ĕ]
Ѩ, ѩ [jĕ]
Ѫ, ѫ [ɤ̆]
Ѭ, ѭ [jɤ̆]
Ѯ, ѯ [ks]*
Ѱ, ѱ [ps]*
Ѳ, ѳ [t]*
Ѵ, ѵ [y], [v]
---
⁺ Used for Russian/OCS loanwords, but for Khazar might represent different sounds (since in Chuvash, there are no separate voiced consonants)
*Either from loanwords or for transcribing Greek

The vowels are based on the representation in this paper.

 

[Dan1988]

Oh, and back to:

3) Some kind of Altaic alphabet would appear (it would be a boon for Turkic and other Altaic languages, as none of existing alphabets possess enough letter to adequately describe Altaic sounds, both Romanization and Cyrillization sucks).

You're not, by chance, referring to Old Turkic?

 

[rcduggan]

By the mid-ninth century, Judaism was already firmly entrenched amongst the Khazar elite. Hebrew was on its way to becoming the lingua franca in Khazaria as well AFAIK. So for a Christian Khazar state, you would need a POD around 800 at latest. Any time later and Judaism is already too powerful in Khazaria.

BTW, IIRC only Cyril went to Khazaria. Interestingly, Methodius accompanying him and getting them both killed is the POD for my Khazar TL (in planning stages).

 

[CanadianGoose]

AFAIK the Rus expanded due to Byzantine Christianization efforts, which stemmed from the failure to convert the Khazars. With that successful ITTL, it could mean that there is no Christianization of the Rus' in 863, no fall of the Rus' Khaganate, and no Rurikids. A very different Russia, and no Sviatoslav.

This is very alternative history comparing to what I've been taught in school. Kievan Rus was very much a product of pre-Christian consolidation (Sviatoslav's father was second ruler of duchy incorporating both Kiev and Novgorod, so Vladimir converted a country which was there for century or so). Byzantines were present in Kiev, no question about it (there's a version that Sviatoslav's mother Olga was a Christian), but they didn't play a major role. Christianization of Rus happened in 987 AD, more than a century after C&M. Going back to Khazarian period, Rurikid Rus was probably a tributary state, but they weren't Khazar's province. Khazar conversion actually reduces chances of Rus baptism, as Kievan Slavs considered Khazars "natural enemies" (Bylinas ache chock full of tales about Russian knights fighting "Jewish knights").

I remember reading somewhere that Orthodox missionaries from Moravia made significant headway in Poland (or at least the area of the Vistulans). So an Orthodox Poland is not too implausible ITTL IMO.

It isn't ASB, but it is just sooo funny. Almost like imagining Hamas rank and file converting to Judaism.

 

[some kind of chimp]

This is very alternative history comparing to what I've been taught in school. Kievan Rus was very much a product of pre-Christian consolidation (Sviatoslav's father was second ruler of duchy incorporating both Kiev and Novgorod, so Vladimir converted a country which was there for century or so). Byzantines were present in Kiev, no question about it (there's a version that Sviatoslav's mother Olga was a Christian), but they didn't play a major role. Christianization of Rus happened in 987 AD, more than a century after C&M. Going back to Khazarian period, Rurikid Rus was probably a tributary state, but they weren't Khazar's province. Khazar conversion actually reduces chances of Rus baptism, as Kievan Slavs considered Khazars "natural enemies" (Bylinas ache chock full of tales about Russian knights fighting "Jewish knights").

I meant the "Christianization of the Rus' Khaganate." (Check Wikipedia)
I don't know how natural the enemies were. For one, the Rus' adopted the Khazar title of "khagan." There was cultural contact and whatnot as well.

It isn't ASB, but it is just sooo funny. Almost like imagining Hamas rank and file converting to Judaism.[/quote]

 

[rcduggan]

This is very alternative history comparing to what I've been taught in school. Kievan Rus was very much a product of pre-Christian consolidation (Sviatoslav's father was second ruler of duchy incorporating both Kiev and Novgorod, so Vladimir converted a country which was there for century or so). Byzantines were present in Kiev, no question about it (there's a version that Sviatoslav's mother Olga was a Christian), but they didn't play a major role. Christianization of Rus happened in 987 AD, more than a century after C&M. Going back to Khazarian period, Rurikid Rus was probably a tributary state, but they weren't Khazar's province. Khazar conversion actually reduces chances of Rus baptism, as Kievan Slavs considered Khazars "natural enemies" (Bylinas ache chock full of tales about Russian knights fighting "Jewish knights").

Out of curiosity, CanadianGoose, have you read Viking Rus, by [SIZE=-1]Wladyslaw Duczko? It presents an interesting debate on the accuracy of the Primary Chronicle, which is what a lot of this seems to be based upon.[/SIZE]

 

[CanadianGoose]

Out of curiosity, CanadianGoose, have you read Viking Rus, by [SIZE=-1]Wladyslaw Duczko? It presents an interesting debate on the accuracy of the Primary Chronicle, which is what a lot of this seems to be based upon.[/SIZE]

No, but (beat me if I'm wrong) a book written by Pole on accuracy of the [SIZE=-1]Primary Chronicle is likely to greatly emphasize "Germano-Scandianvian" role in establishing civilized state among Eastern Slavic savages. Anyway, this whole "Normanism vs. anti-Normanism" [/SIZE]discussion is off-topic here. By the times of Vladimir it was Eastern Slavic duchy ruled by local elite.

 

[rcduggan]

No, but (beat me if I'm wrong) a book written by Pole on accuracy of the [SIZE=-1]Primary Chronicle is likely to greatly emphasize "Germano-Scandianvian" role in establishing civilized state among Eastern Slavic savages. Anyway, this whole "Normanism vs. anti-Normanism" [/SIZE]discussion is off-topic here. By the times of Vladimir it was Eastern Slavic duchy ruled by local elite.

But still, the points he raises are interesting. And I have yet to see a convincing anti-Normanist book.

 

[CanadianGoose]

But still, the points he raises are interesting. And I have yet to see a convincing anti-Normanist book.

I kinda flipped through it on Google books and about the only thing I was impressed about is shamelessness of some of his arguments. I mean, when Western author mix Slavic and Norse customs and items, I generally explain it away by author's ignorance. Great many Western "experts on Russia" honestly don't have a clue what they're talking about (the whole "bear roaming streets of Moscow" thing). But when Pole without a trace of hesitation describes some custom shared by Eastern Slavs and Poles since pagan times as something introduced by Norse, he can't plead ignorance. Nosiree. We're looking at propaganda piece disguised as scientific research.

 

[rcduggan]

I kinda flipped through it on Google books and about the only thing I was impressed about is shamelessness of some of his arguments. I mean, when Western author mix Slavic and Norse customs and items, I generally explain it away by author's ignorance. Great many Western "experts on Russia" honestly don't have a clue what they're talking about (the whole "bear roaming streets of Moscow" thing). But when Pole without a trace of hesitation describes some custom shared by Eastern Slavs and Poles since pagan times as something introduced by Norse, he can't plead ignorance. Nosiree. We're looking at propaganda piece disguised as scientific research.

This is what happens when I read a book with little prior knowledge.
Sorry... I definitely should have searched for other sources before subscribing to his ideas.

 

[RGB]

@Goose: AND He works, by the looks of it, at Uppsala.

I mean, there's giving people credit and all that, but that raises flags in my mind immediately.

 

[some kind of chimp]

@Goose: AND He works, by the looks of it, at Uppsala.

I mean, there's giving people credit and all that, but that raises flags in my mind immediately.

FWIW, that was because (according to Wiki) he was leading the excavation at old Uppsala for archeological evaluation.