Barring, bigger than OTL number of Roman settlers, and at TTL time, IMO, at best Britain may aspire, for a smoother than OTL, transition to an de facto post Roman/'rump' State like Soissons or even, perhaps, like the Brythonic, in Armorica/Brittany.
I would say also the people's in Britannica would become more Roman and it would be the more germanic elements and gaul elements
Of the Roman Empire that would like to settle in that climber
I think a lot depends on if the Rome leaves the in 410 AD and how peaceful that land is and how prosperous it is
Would it be a Republic or monarchy or a hybrid of both and would the administrative state which can have an army and navy
Would that survivors well
I agree with what Xenophonte said, also because it must be remembered that if the Urbicus plan is successful in the long term, we will see Rome not having to "waste" huge resources in having to preside over, defend and manage a complicated province like Otl's Britain, maintaining 3 legions constantly on site ( with the risk of possible rebellions in the area, which widely happened ) so these saved resources would be redistributed elsewhere, in hotter fronts for the Empire ( such as the Germanic or Persian Limes ) giving a chance to breathe greater in Rome ( thanks to a better capacity for rapid intervention in the event of incursions coming from those regions into its territories ) this in turn could influence the very survival or duration of the imperial administration in the West compared to Otl, given that some crises historically occurred, here they do not happen ( I am mainly talking about the British usurpers, such as Constantine III and his associates ) who forced the central government to divert resources from important fronts to intervene to resolve the various problems created
If their are still going to be political crisis and border crisises in the far future then Britannica would still be attacked
But if from Island, Scandinavia and germanic tribes which would mean the natives in Britannica would need to fight on their own
Or have legions deployed to the region
But I do see what you are saying those legion's can go to other places in empire and that the Empire could potentially expand its borders
As for this I wonder how much is it a Roman survive story or would it become a surviving Roman civilization in Britannica story
I just wonder what the scope and intentions of this story is but that might be too much of a spoiler
The last episode seem to imply that Urbicus pretends to invade Hibernia which may result in the empire changing an island in need of being constantly garrisoned for another and given how hard was OTL for the British to maintain control of Ireland despite being one of the biggest empires in the world...
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For the Normans, English and then the British Island there was never too bothered about it was seen as a backwater
Didn't hold the same prestige as trying to maintain control of French lands
Their is the strong possibility I think that if the Anglo-Saxon kings continued to rule England they would have united the Island
You can not really do that if you are fight wars on the continent
It could be a similar story in this if the Britannic Romans try to resurrect the Roman Empire in the West
But in this new time line the British would have been unite at longer with otl England, Wales and Scotland never existing it would just be one Kingdom
I want to mention that at least for a considerable time, even if success would reward Urbicus' efforts, still would be need of to have Legions garrisoning it and to have to the veterans from those same legions to marry with the natives and settle there. But, also, to point that this scenario would have the potential advantage, for Rome and for the Same Britannia's future, that besides to have new 'fresh' sources for Auxilia, to also, to recruit Legionarii/Classiarii in Britain and even Hibernia, to have/keep their own Legions/Classis in the Irish Sea. One that perhaps would be based on a TTL taken Monapia/Mannia (Island of Man)...
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a conquest during the reign of Antoninus Pius is interesting, because (assuming the broad strokes of Roman history still go the same) because very soon it’s going to be dealing with coalitions of Germanic tribes as well as the biggest crisis it has ever seen some decades later. That will get in the way of consolidating Caledonia
VIII- Setting a Precedent
Theatre of Pompey, October 14th, 140
"L-Lucius, hush for heavens sake" Marcus Aurelius tried to avoid being a hypocrite, barely able to keep from breaking into a laughing fit himself. Being the heir of Caesar may have been a dangerous, heavy occupation for the young Aurelius, but it did sometimes have its perks, the finest seating in Rome being one of them. Caesar himself was supposed to be the guest of honor, but priestly matters had tied him up yet again, and Marcus was sent his stead. It'd been his idea to take Lucius, the poor kid hadn't been allowed away from his studies in weeks. Antoninus had been happy to let Faustina go along too, anything to take her mind of her mothers health, which was looking increasingly grim. One of the Aedile's had perhaps been too hospitable, leaving in their private viewing box, a bottle of by now long gone Raetian wine. Marcus had even risked giving Lucius a cup, hoping it would shut him up, to no avail. Now the three children of the Augustus struggled to avoid making fools of themselves in front of the Roman elite, with mixed results.
Before long the play came to an end, and the red faced trio slowly stumbled out of the theatre, making small talk with the various elites as they did, waiting for their litters to arrive. The talk of the town was of course the great victory at Durnum, and there were rumors that needed to be quashed. One that Marcus himself would be the new governor in Caledonia, one that the legions had proclaimed Urbicus as Imperator in the hopes of landing him a triumph. There were even a few morons going around whispering that the governor had aspirations of usurping Antoninus, which Marcus hushed a bit less politely. "These senators sure are good at worrying themselves." Faustina said quietly, as Marcus joked "Let the old men grumble, it makes them feel relevent."
"Caesar! Caesar!" Marcus groaned as he heard a familar voice "Crassipes." he feigned delight as seeing
the suffect consul "Waiting for your ride as well I take it?" Fuck, why'd you say that, now he's gonna talk your ear off Marcus cursed himself "Indeed, how's the Augustus?" "You'll be able to ask him tomorrow I believe, doesn't the senate meet then?" Crassipes stammered a bit "Oh of course of course, well... perhaps you can give him a motion of mine.." Marcus struggled to maintain his professionalism "Consul, I have no authority to deliver proposals, nonetheless I'll take a look, and if you put it on the floor tomorrow, I'll give my input." Mercifully, the imperial litter bearers arrived, the trio gave a quick goodbye, and they were whisked off into the dark streets of Rome. As the guarded procession made its way toward the Palatine, Marcus decided to have a look at the proposal.
Much of it was needlessly verbose flattery, pointless elaborations, though by the time the litter began to ascend the Palatine, Marcus had found the relevent section:
"In sumation, my friend, the new governor of Germania Inferior, proposes a weeding of sorts in greater Germania. Rather than attempt to conquer territory or wage battle, the objective to destroy the resources and settlements of the local barbarians, in the hopes that their reduced population would require fewer legions to garrison the Rhine. This would not require additional legions from other provinces, though perhaps some more Auxilia would need to be recruited for supporting them. We estimate that as many as a thousand thousand Germanics could be destroyed in this fashion in one year, which would..."
Marcus found himself reading that last sentence again, it gave him pause. Destroying the enemies of Rome was something he could easily except, war might be terrible but it was necessary at times. This was something beyond war though, it was pest control at the level of entire peoples. In any case, before long he found himself outside his own home near the palace, the late night already turning bitterly cold on the hilltop. He made sure the guards would see Faustina and Lucius home, then quietly stumbled to his bedroom. Despite the fun night and a stomach full of wine, Marcus wouldn't sleep until dawn that night...
The problem with Germania is that it would cost the fortune to develop there's the issue of the mountains and of the dense forests
Then their is the Pathian Empire and the wealthier Eastern provinces especially Egypt and the silk road to China
What happened in Britannica is giving governors the scope to take military action and to expand the borders of Rome
With the permission of the first citizen of course but if it happens once it can happen again
Then their is the Pathian Empire and the wealthier Eastern provinces especially Egypt and the silk road to China
What happened in Britannica is giving governors the scope to take military action and to expand the borders of Rome
With the permission of the first citizen of course but if it happens once it can happen again
Cause, what he 'd be aiming is for.... More likely result is that it backfire and get that be formed an war coalition by all the border tribes even those once enemies tribes, to join for attack against the Roman borders.
Cause, what he'd be aiming for, more likely result is that it, the propose massive raid, would backfire. And only get that'd be forming some sort of war coalition/alliance of all the affected German border tribes, even those once enemies, tribes, to join all together in a retaliatory attack against the Roman borders and beyond.
Yeah it seems like they have finally forgotten about the Varus disaster and want to repeat it
very funny chapter, which shows how life proceeds in the eternal city, in particular for the imperial family, the senators as usual demand favors and circulate rumors bordering on the absurd giving them credit, I too like the future Marcus Aurelius, I am not very sure about the validity of the proposal coming from the province of Germany, although I can understand that weakening the Germanic populations on the border with the Limes is not a bad idea (especially considering what the Marcomanni and Quadi are capable of doing in Otl) even if I am of the opinion that reinforcing the Agri Decumates or slightly expanding them would be an excellent thing for Rome ( also because they control the area between the river Main, the sources of the Danube and the course of the upper Rhine between Lake Constance and its confluence col Main, which if successfully fortified, would be perfect defensive bastions in that part of the Limes, especially if the famous canal that joins the Rhine with the Danube is actually built successfully ) as well as being a prosperous and growing population region
It's a sound proposal and while I agree that it would bring benefices in the middle to long term... But, such proposal once again makes to raise its head, the recurrent question for the Romans. On what border should be given, in 'peacetime', priority on both resources and, especially, in manpower...
Or rather, in a politico militar decision, about where and how to spare/find/reassigning the necessary funds to finance, first for fund the deploy or the raising/training of new Legions (with their Auxilia) and the manpower that probably 'd be needed for the likely multi-season campaigns and later for man the fortress and the defense garrisons.
IX: Valiant and Futile
New
Northern Hibernia, May 12th, 141
"Chief! Chief!" Cailtram was jostled out of his sleep by one of the fort guards "There are ships in the harbor!" The chief already had a feeling who they were, and didn't hesitate to grab his short sword and round shield as he rushed outside. Scurrying up to the walls of the hillfort, under a brilliant full moon, he could just barely make out the dark outlines of the largest ships he'd ever seen. "Gods above.." he muttered, as he turned to the same warrior who'd woken him "Take 50 spears, get the women and children to the South." The chief told him sternly, giving the young man a pat on the shoulder as he set off to complete his task. Cailtram now turned his eyes towards the smaller and less numerous ships dragged up on shore, his own, wondering if he and his men could reach them in time, perhaps their odds would be more even at sea. He received his answer moments later, as it took time for the Hibernian to realize what he was seeing. The Romans were raining stones down on his modest fleet, black specks silently hurling towards the modest fleet. He watched, mouth agape as ship after ship was torn to matchwood by the rocks. Cailtram had heard rumors of the Roman war machines that could hurl boulders and arrows the size of trees, but he'd never imagined they'd be able to mount them on ships.
The chief didn't waste time, he gathered every man and boy old enough to hold a weapon, and resolved to meet the invaders on the beaches. The core of his small levy was formed by the closest men to Cailtram and their own families, armed with spears and short swords, clad in iron helmets and the occasional breastplate. Others, whose professions didn't normally let them see the battlefield, along with the older men and the boys, armed themselves with axes, clubs, hammers, whatever was sharp or heavy enough to kill. The chief, along with many of the wiser men, understood how hopeless their situation would be if they were facing the legions. Still, there was the chance that if they were merely fighting their Brittonic puppets, just maybe they could pregail. Cailtram had no alternative but to believe that would be true, as he struggled to motivate the concerned group.
As the Celts approached the beach, Cailtram could see the Roman boats already discharging men onto the shore. A few of the silhouetted figures movied towards the defenders, scouts presumably, and the chief strode ahead of his men to see who they were. As he got close enough to make out their kits, he was relieved to not see the rectangular shields of the legions, these were their dogs. Cailtram met the first scout, with a rapid circular motion he parried his enemy's sword from his hands, before sending his own blade through his neck. The second opponent telegraphed his attack as he wound up to slash, allowing Cailtram to plant his sword through his groin. Finally believing for the first time that he may see dawn, the chieftain turned to his people, then to the enemy "With me! With me!" he cried, as the roars of the men mixed with the straining of the bagpipes behind his line, every man with a weapon charged into the fray.
For several minutes the carnage played out uninterrupted, as the shields smashed shields and men on both sides bled heavily, not a man among them willing to back down. Cailtram was amongst his brothers, his uncles, his cousins and his nephews, one massive extended family fighting for their lives. After a spell on the front line, the chief stepped away to get a better look at the situation. The instant he reached the rear his blood curdled, hardly ten paces behind the line were the glimmering steel outlines of the Romans. He and a few others called out "Legions!!" and some in the rear turned to face them. Cailtram was among them, landing a flurry of blows against one legionary, all of them bouncing harmlessly off his segmented armor. The Celt presented an opening, the Roman put his gladius through his chest, and before the life had drained out of him, a similar fate had befallen his kin. All was silent except for the groins of the dying, and not one Roman citizen was among them...
Good update, but I hope the Caledonians don’t keep charging into battles and getting themselves killed. At least during campaigns like that of Septimius Severus OTL they preferred guerilla warfare. So far the Romans probably know this and have been great at seeming weak to lure the Caledonians into battle, but I don’t think that will continue to work for long, and soon they’ll switch to hiding in the mountains and fighting
X- Bad Habits Catch up to You
New
By the Spring of 141, Governor Urbicus had uncovered much about to mysterious land of Hibernia. For a century the Roman merchants in Britannia had engaged with the local Celts, who were eager to give away gold, copper, and especially slaves in exchange for what the Romans considered cheap raw material. When Rome decided to change the nature of its relations with Hibernia in 141, this trade backfired spectacularly. Brittonic villas were full of Hibernians from nearly every tribe and region, many of whom were persuaded into informing the Romans about their knowledge of island. As the seas calmed, the navy got to work, Roman worships and marines demolished every raider outpost on Hibernia in less than two weeks, clearing the way for the army. Unlike the Caledonians however, the Hibernians were unanimous in their opposition to Rome, they knew what nightmare awaited them if captured, they'd spent 100 years inflicting it on one another.
Given the populace had been feuding for so long, their forces were highly experienced, but still typically lacked the equipment and discipline of the legions. Nonetheless, hearing what happened in Caledonia, along with their own first engagements with the Romans, the Hibernians decided a direct, decisive battle wasn't the best strategy. Indeed after the first skirmishes on the coast, Urbicus described the interior as looking like every human had vanished the day before. Hovels and hillforts were still surrounded by well-weeded crops, pigsty's were freshly emptied, it was clear the locals had run. The interior of the island was heavily forrested, scarcely settled, and virtually impossible to move supply wagons through, the perfect place for ambushes.
As the three legions assigned to secure Hibernia advanced beyond the coast, hit and run attqcks became the regular business of the day. In particular the Celts would try to isolate single cohorts, and pelt them with arrows and slinger bullets, withdrawing when help arrived. While Hibernians were being killed, this was mostly done by auxiliary cavalry and missile troops, not the legions themselves. Only a handful of legionaries would be killed or wounded in each attack, but these happened several times a day across the island. Additionally, foraging, which was needed to supply the troops far from the ports, required entire centuries to venture out together to avoid ambushes. In the worst case, a single isolated cohort lost 2/5 of its strength in a 16 hour long night attack on its camp.
The Romans soon responded in turn, as one by one, the stumbled upon the camps of the secluded locals. Entire tribes were annihilated overnight, the men fighting to the last, leaving their families to be enslaved. As the Dacians had a generation ago, many Hibernians killed themselves and their families to avoid the wrath of the legions. In an attempt to flush out the enemy, the Romans started efforts to burn the forests whereever they could, difficult given the wet conditions, but somewhat effective. By mid summer, with food supplies beginning to run low, some groups gave the Romans their surrenders. The terms were harsh, most of these Hibernians were forced onto subpar land they didn't own, forced to start crops months late, and given essentially no assistence. By autumn famine was setting in, what aid arrived was more aimed at stopping rebellion than stoping hunger. It's estimated that by the end of 141 that as many as 75,000 Hibernians were dead, nearly a third of the population, having taken about 8,000 romans with them.
While there had been some serious losses of veteran legionaries, a problem which persisted into 142, Urbicus and the Emperor were satisfied, All of Western Europe was now under the eagle. However, holding the islands would prove difficult. Two legions were still required in Hibernia by spring of 142, and the other three in Brittania. Nonetheless, the new Imperial province of Hibernia was created in June of that year. With the last of the Hibernian resistance starving out by early summer, the two visting legions were returned to their frontier posts on the continent, and three legions with their equal number of Auxilia held the two great islands, even as tempers flared among the newly conquered. The celebration of the creation of a new province would be short lived however, as all eyes would soon be fixed on the Rhine...
Given the populace had been feuding for so long, their forces were highly experienced, but still typically lacked the equipment and discipline of the legions. Nonetheless, hearing what happened in Caledonia, along with their own first engagements with the Romans, the Hibernians decided a direct, decisive battle wasn't the best strategy. Indeed after the first skirmishes on the coast, Urbicus described the interior as looking like every human had vanished the day before. Hovels and hillforts were still surrounded by well-weeded crops, pigsty's were freshly emptied, it was clear the locals had run. The interior of the island was heavily forrested, scarcely settled, and virtually impossible to move supply wagons through, the perfect place for ambushes.
As the three legions assigned to secure Hibernia advanced beyond the coast, hit and run attqcks became the regular business of the day. In particular the Celts would try to isolate single cohorts, and pelt them with arrows and slinger bullets, withdrawing when help arrived. While Hibernians were being killed, this was mostly done by auxiliary cavalry and missile troops, not the legions themselves. Only a handful of legionaries would be killed or wounded in each attack, but these happened several times a day across the island. Additionally, foraging, which was needed to supply the troops far from the ports, required entire centuries to venture out together to avoid ambushes. In the worst case, a single isolated cohort lost 2/5 of its strength in a 16 hour long night attack on its camp.
The Romans soon responded in turn, as one by one, the stumbled upon the camps of the secluded locals. Entire tribes were annihilated overnight, the men fighting to the last, leaving their families to be enslaved. As the Dacians had a generation ago, many Hibernians killed themselves and their families to avoid the wrath of the legions. In an attempt to flush out the enemy, the Romans started efforts to burn the forests whereever they could, difficult given the wet conditions, but somewhat effective. By mid summer, with food supplies beginning to run low, some groups gave the Romans their surrenders. The terms were harsh, most of these Hibernians were forced onto subpar land they didn't own, forced to start crops months late, and given essentially no assistence. By autumn famine was setting in, what aid arrived was more aimed at stopping rebellion than stoping hunger. It's estimated that by the end of 141 that as many as 75,000 Hibernians were dead, nearly a third of the population, having taken about 8,000 romans with them.
While there had been some serious losses of veteran legionaries, a problem which persisted into 142, Urbicus and the Emperor were satisfied, All of Western Europe was now under the eagle. However, holding the islands would prove difficult. Two legions were still required in Hibernia by spring of 142, and the other three in Brittania. Nonetheless, the new Imperial province of Hibernia was created in June of that year. With the last of the Hibernian resistance starving out by early summer, the two visting legions were returned to their frontier posts on the continent, and three legions with their equal number of Auxilia held the two great islands, even as tempers flared among the newly conquered. The celebration of the creation of a new province would be short lived however, as all eyes would soon be fixed on the Rhine...