Toulon Fleets joins FNFL

fhaessig

On 27th of November 1942, the french fleet at Toulon, scuttled itself, at orders from admiral de Laborde, rather than fall into german hands or join the british ( shades of Mers-el-Kebir ).

On that day, 3 battleships, 7 cruisers, 30 destroyers, 17 submarines ( out of 21; the others escaped ) and 18 smaller ships or frigates were lost.

Now, let's suppose that another french admiral is in charge, one who is more anti-german and secretly pro-De Gaulle and willing to fight with, if not the RN, the USN and the FNFL.

So, when the german panzer divisions comes to the height above Toulon, they receive a 280mm greeting from Strasbourg, as the last of the fleet leaves the harbour, taking with it 700,000t of merchant naval shipping ( 87 cargo, 16 Oilers and several tens of smaller ships ) - that the german got OTL -, weighted with every item from the arsenal which could be loaded posthaste.

The fleets then sail for North Africa where the admiral annonce it's will to join de Gaulle.

What then?


For info : http://www.netmarine.net/forces/operatio/sabordage/index.htm
 

Michael B

Biggest issue over this fleet is how to upgrade the warships and put them into service. Taking the BB Richelieu on OTL as a model, all the vessels are going to require more AA guns fitted to them. In addition any BBs and BCs are going to require radar to bring them up to the same standard and their ritish and American counterparts. The time it took was about 9 months.

One may therefore assume that it will take to the end of the war to refit them all with priority going to the most modern.
 
Thande

Thande

Donor
fhaessig said:
??????

We're speaking end of November 1942, here; After Torch.

Or did I misunderstood your question?
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I misread your post :eek:

Hmm...this would perhaps facilitate the primary invasion of Europe via the South of France rather than Normandy, a year or two later...
 

fhaessig

Michael B said:
Biggest issue over this fleet is how to upgrade the warships and put them into service. Taking the BB Richelieu on OTL as a model, all the vessels are going to require more AA guns fitted to them. In addition any BBs and BCs are going to require radar to bring them up to the same standard and their ritish and American counterparts. The time it took was about 9 months.

One may therefore assume that it will take to the end of the war to refit them all with priority going to the most modern.
Click to expand...

What about the addition of a score submarines and a score and a half destroyers to the allies? Or the removal of more than a hundred cargo and oiler from the german side?

Not to mention that FNFL used an old battleship - Courbet - without refurbishment. Anyway STrasbourg and Dunkerque seems modern enough to be used without refurbisment ( AA armament was 8 37 mm and 32 machine guns - BTW, main weapons are 330 mm, not 280, my mistake ). The 7 cruisers also seem modern enough ( all launched after 30 ) and well supplied with AA gun ( even if Gloire and Montcalm, light cruisers of the same class as 3 of those scuttled in Toulon, got itheir AA upgraded in the USA in 43 )


http://perso.orange.fr/bertrand.daubigny/SabT.htm
 

Michael B

fhaessig said:
Not to mention that FNFL used an old battleship - Courbet - without refurbishment. Anyway STrasbourg and Dunkerque seems modern enough to be used without refurbisment ( AA armament was 8 37 mm and 32 machine guns - BTW, main weapons are 330 mm, not 280, my mistake ). The 7 cruisers also seem modern enough ( all launched after 30 ) and well supplied with AA gun ( even if Gloire and Montcalm, light cruisers of the same class as 3 of those scuttled in Toulon, got itheir AA upgraded in the USA in 43 )
Click to expand...
The named BBs have 8 serious flak guns against for example the USS New Jersey in the same era which had over 120. After a refit on OTL, the Montcalm had 24.

So the main armament would almost certainly stay (on OTL they built a special factory to make shells for the Richelieu), but a refit on the flak guns is a must.

To be honest, I can not see the extra French ships making any difference to the war. By the time they are refitted, the German Navy will be on its last legs and in the Pacific, it is a carrier war. Hopefully, some one will explain why I am wrong ;)
 
Thande

Thande

Donor
I could see part of the fleet being sent to the Pacific, just to fly the flag for France - it doesn't matter so much whether they actually make a difference or not, the point is to raise awareness of France still being in the fight. Indochina could go differently afterwards, for example.
 

Dave Howery

by 1942, will the addition of the French fleet make that much difference? Once the US is in the war, the Axis sea power in the Atlantic and Med was pretty much doomed. Now, if the fleet had joined the RN in 1940, that would have made a difference...
I suppose the french ships could help on convoys, help with anti-sub duties...
 

Smaug

I don't see why these ships wouldn't be useful for shore bombardment, and other duties where land based aircraft can cover them. Than again, they are French:p
 

Redbeard

Banned
The French fleet might relieve the Home Fleet on the Tirpitz/Scharnhorst watch, and the RN thus be in a better position to support the planned re-conquest of SEA.

I'm not sure better naval assets will do it though, the British were short on all kind of resources as long as the war went on in Europe - and the Americans weren't particulary keen on the British acting on their own in that part of the world.

The 700.000 tons of shipping will be very handy however - they can carry supplies for one year for 6 Divisions in combat (one Div appr. 300 tons each day). That will give the allies some interesting extra opportunities - in OTL they were always short on shipping.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 

Johnnyreb

wWhen the Italian fleet tried the same stunt as proposed here about 10 months later, the Luftwaffe came down on them like a ton of bricks. Admittedly the Germans did not have the guided bomb in Nov 1942, but they were still pretty expert.

Which gives the problem of battle damage as well as upgrading. Only the Americans might have had sufficient dockyard space to do all this. Neither the British nor the French had any available at all.

So I doubt very many of the large units would have been taken into service by the other Allies. Merchantmen and escorts, yes, but anything larger, it would depend on its condition.

Shore bombardment? There were only two occasions when it was actually needed in the Med, Salerno and Anzio, and by that time the Germans did have the guided bomb.

There was no chance of Southern France substituting for Normandy. The Americans wanted the northern French coast, and Alanbrooke agreed. It made much more sense than the Cote D'Azur, where the difficult country inland made it easy for the germans to react and defend. The only reason Anvil happened was because the shipping and troops were already in the Med and there wasn't much point in moving them.

BTW, some French admirals weren't so prissy about serving with the British. I have somewhere a photo of I think the Dunquerque sailing with an RN squadron in the Indian Ocean.
 

Magnum

I think everyone more or less agrees that the ships would have had some impact on events in the Med. had they joined the allies, although it wouldn't have been all that significant. What would have happened however if the oposite happened, and the axis somehow succedes in taking control of those ships before they exited harbour (pro-german french admiral, confusion, ASB whatever) Would it have tipped the balance in favour of the italians ? Would operations by these ships have led to more british attacks on Vichy assets or something, enough to get the Vichy France (willingly or not) on the axis side ?
 

DuQuense

Most of the ships would have been taken to America for a Refit. 9 Month refit wait is lots better at this point, than a 18~24 month wait for new.

they may not have have been that big during the War, but they would have been Giants in the Peace.
the Free French come out of the War, with an Entire Fleet- several Battle Groups, Dozens of smaller and Axcillery Ships, plus the Support vessals.

DeGualle would have a lot more bargining power in shaping the Peace.
And the shipping would mean that France wouldn't have to beg the US, for the ships needed to move troops to Veitman after the war.
 

vpsoccer

Refits could have been done in US yards, and light AA can mostly be bolted on (with ammo supply being a bit more problematic). Addition of Oerlikon and Bofors, with a general refit, could have provided useful ships if even for just a few months until some had to be cannibalized to keep others running. If you look at the USN shortage of cruisers in 1942-43, these cruisers plus D and S would have been useful. They could have replaced the USN ships used in the Med, or gone themselves to the Solomons.

As described, the smaller vessels and shipping capacity would have been a faster and more certain increment to Allied strength.
 
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