Sir John Valentine Carden survives.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
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You could probably manhandle some 2pdr's onto ships if you really want to. With a better organised and equipped defence you may have the time and inclination, at least at the start of the evacuation, to get some heavier equipment out.
Thing is as much as things like 2pdr's would be really nice it's not that necessary. The impression of the withdrawal may well be different. OTL it was Britain got beat and was lucky to get its troops out (Simplified). TTL it may well be seen as more of a fighting withdrawal where Britain lost out to superior numbers. That and getting an equipped (sort of) force out of France means Britain likely feels a lot less vulnerable.
You are right about the perception of the panzers in the minds of the British politicians.
Hats off to Cryhavoc for remembering the 21st Division. I had completely forgotten about that not so little nugget.
which got me thinking. Much has been said in this site (if not in this TL) about the horrendous decision circle in the Frenxh army in the Bof. This often stated to be one to two days. If that’s the case (thanks to the British at Arras) for the first time in the campaign the French can get a clearer idea about what is going on and what forces are where. They can then get orders out and get them to their formations before they are again hopelessly out of touch when the Germans resume their offensive. This may allow some better choices to be made than at this time in the campaign OTL.
If nothing else the extra day will allow the exposed South Western flank to be more effectively plugged perhaps allowing a slower weighting withdrawal to the coast (especially if the better prepared and armed Calais garrison gives the Herman panzer divisions a bloody nose).
which got me thinking. Much has been said in this site (if not in this TL) about the horrendous decision circle in the Frenxh army in the Bof. This often stated to be one to two days. If that’s the case (thanks to the British at Arras) for the first time in the campaign the French can get a clearer idea about what is going on and what forces are where. They can then get orders out and get them to their formations before they are again hopelessly out of touch when the Germans resume their offensive. This may allow some better choices to be made than at this time in the campaign OTL.
If nothing else the extra day will allow the exposed South Western flank to be more effectively plugged perhaps allowing a slower weighting withdrawal to the coast (especially if the better prepared and armed Calais garrison gives the Herman panzer divisions a bloody nose).
if nothing else it might be possible to carry the 2 pounder guns out by leaving the carriages. Along with high value man moveable parts like gun sights and even tyres.
You don't manhandle on things like 2-pdr guns. You put them into a cargo net and drop that onto the ship. For a short run, in reasonable weather, just tie the net down and undo it when you get to England. The big advantage of troops walking up a gangplank is that they can carry things like brens, backpack radios, even stuff like mortars. So far less light equipment shortage one the evacuation is done.
Lorries aren't really an issue - troops were expected to be moved around Britain by rail, Britain in 1940 had the densest and most resilient rail system in the world.
Lorries aren't really an issue - troops were expected to be moved around Britain by rail, Britain in 1940 had the densest and most resilient rail system in the world.
If you really wanted too you could. Yes it would be the absolute last resort before abandoning but you could.
The individual equipment for troops being brought back has some nice benefits and some nice potential butterflies.
The lorries will be a big loss to North Africa but again with a slightly better withdrawal plan maybe some get out.
Small edit to the second point
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But Oh, Beamish nephew
Beware of the day
If your Mk 6 is a Valiant
For then you shall suddenly and explosively vanish away...
Beware of the day
If your Mk 6 is a Valiant
For then you shall suddenly and explosively vanish away...
Does Boulogne have a rail ferry port? (the only time I've been there was to take the hovercraft ferry so I have absolutely no idea)
Another little butterfly about using Calais as the evacuation port...what about sending a monitor? HMS Erebus is available
Another little butterfly about using Calais as the evacuation port...what about sending a monitor? HMS Erebus is available
allanpcameron
Donor
Would you mind telling me what your source is for this. It would be really helpful. Ta
Allan
Hyperwar
and I took the ToE from wiki
I did a bit more research and the 21st might not have been a regular division (the 21st existed pre war) as such as some of the sources while being quite anaemic mention that the units came from 'training command'.
Talking of that, could you do the same for the heavier guns? How much time could you save on new guns by not having to build new gun-sights.
23 May 1940. Arras, France.
allanpcameron
Donor
23 May 1940. Arras, France.
The German 5th Panzer Division had been probing and pushing against the British positions to the west of Arras during the night and particularly since dawn. A foothold in the village of Maroeuil had been established during the night against the Northamptons, but a counter-attack by two platoons from C Company had restored the status quo. German artillery increased their fire on the British positions.
Sixteen German tanks, with about 200 infantry advanced across the open ground towards Maroeuil Wood. The panzers arrived first, and one was knocked out by a 2-pdr anti-tank gun. B Company’s commander ordered the Boys rifles into action, scoring hits, the panzers began withdrawing. The infantry however kept coming and soon C Company were in a fight for their lives. Two platoons of D Company 6th Bn Seaforth Highlanders were sent to support the Northamptons, along with a section of three A11 Infantry Tank Mark Is from 17th Brigade’s reserve. The German’s had no response and the pompom guns soon drove them back.
As the day progressed 17th Brigade were constantly under pressure, from the German infantry of 20th Motorised Division, while the panzers of 5th and 7th Panzer Divisions, along with the SS Totenkopf Division, kept probing for a way around Arras towards Béthune. The French bore the brunt of this and this led to 7th Bn RTR being used to blunt the German advance. 5th Panzer Division had been able to force a crossing of the River Scarpe in the vicinity of Acq, where the French had forced back the 7th Panzer Division the previous evening. The French troops, under fire, withdrew from the river line, opening a potentially lethal breach between the allies. 17th Brigade found themselves facing the difficult manoeuvre of swinging back towards the road between Arras and Souchez. With the high ground at Mont-Saint-Eloi in German hands, the same batteries of the Royal Artillery which had supported the 7th Bn RTR at Beaurains once more found themselves covering the advance of the Infantry Tanks.
The British tanks advanced from the direction of Vimy Ridge, preventing the road being cut and pushing the Germans back. 5th Panzer Division, unlike Rommel’s 7th, was equipped with German made tanks. The Panzer I and IIs of the light companies were badly mauled by both the 2-pdrs in the six A12 Infantry Tank Mark IIs and the pompoms of the eighteen A11 Infantry Tank Marks Is. The Panzer III and IVs of the mixed companies were vulnerable to the 2-pdr, and within reasonable ranges, of the pompom. The 37mm gun on the panzers and the anti-tank companies, were unable to deal with the armour on the Infantry Tanks, though they did concentrate on tracks and other vulnerable spots, knocking some of the British tanks out of the fight. The 75mm short gun on the Panzer IV was discovered to have a different role from the close support tanks in British doctrine. The HE was dangerous, they even discovered that the Germans had armour piercing round, which proved deadly at short ranges. The German anti-tank guns found themselves particularly vulnerable to the HE shells from the pompoms on the A11s.
Having worked successfully with the Durham Light Infantry previously, it was the turn of the 9th Bn DLI who supported the advance of the tanks. Mont-Saint-Eloi was once more cleared, the Germans retreating back over the river. It came at the cost of half of the tanks of 7th Bn RTR, at least some of them would be repairable if there was both time and equipment.
On the eastern side of Arras, 150th Brigade and 13th Brigade were facing the 12th Infantry Division which by late afternoon had managed to penetrate over the river between the two British Brigades, penetrating as far as Bailleul. General Franklyn ordered 4th Bn RTR to move to block the Germans at Bailleul, and although the 4th Bn RTR had been reduced to two Companies from the fighting the day before, they did so, the Germans once again struggling to cope with the Infantry tanks, though Stukas and German artillery did their best to stop the British tanks, though in vain, as the 12th Infantry Division were pushed back to the river.
By late evening the front line had stabilised, but General Franklyn was aware that the men under his command and within Arras itself were exhausted with dwindling supplies. Having consulted with Lord Gort, the order was given for Petre Force and Franklyn’s force of his own 5th and Martel’s 50th Infantry Division were to withdraw under the cover of darkness back to the Canal Line at La Bassée, where Pol Force, including 25th and 139th Brigade were digging in. It was a withdrawal of just under twenty miles, but by dawn on 24 May the majority of the British forces had managed to successfully disengage and pass back to join the forces that were protecting the southern flank of the BEF. A number of rear-guard units, especially in the carrier platoons, eventually were captured or killed as they covered the withdrawal, Lieutenant Furness of the Welsh Guards being awarded a posthumous VC later for his actions covering the withdrawal of Petre Force from Arras. The losses to the tanks of 4th and 7th Bn RTR meant that they were amalgamated into a single unit.
NB text in italic differs from OTL. The RTR did hold back the 5th Panzer Division at Souchez, where the Major who had replaced the two dead Lt-Cols killed the previous day, now commanding the amalgamated battalions was himself killed. That punch stopped the Germans short of Vimy Ridge and kept one of the roads back from Arras open., but the 5th Panzers and 20th Motorised Divs had pushed the British back from the river to holding the roads on the west and the 12th Infantry had split the two Brigades on the east, in effect making the position at Arras unsustainable. Here both 5th and 50th Division withdraw in better order and with fewer casualties, which is important later. The RTR is still on the field, probably now just about 50 tanks, hence the amalgamation.
The German 5th Panzer Division had been probing and pushing against the British positions to the west of Arras during the night and particularly since dawn. A foothold in the village of Maroeuil had been established during the night against the Northamptons, but a counter-attack by two platoons from C Company had restored the status quo. German artillery increased their fire on the British positions.
Sixteen German tanks, with about 200 infantry advanced across the open ground towards Maroeuil Wood. The panzers arrived first, and one was knocked out by a 2-pdr anti-tank gun. B Company’s commander ordered the Boys rifles into action, scoring hits, the panzers began withdrawing. The infantry however kept coming and soon C Company were in a fight for their lives. Two platoons of D Company 6th Bn Seaforth Highlanders were sent to support the Northamptons, along with a section of three A11 Infantry Tank Mark Is from 17th Brigade’s reserve. The German’s had no response and the pompom guns soon drove them back.
As the day progressed 17th Brigade were constantly under pressure, from the German infantry of 20th Motorised Division, while the panzers of 5th and 7th Panzer Divisions, along with the SS Totenkopf Division, kept probing for a way around Arras towards Béthune. The French bore the brunt of this and this led to 7th Bn RTR being used to blunt the German advance. 5th Panzer Division had been able to force a crossing of the River Scarpe in the vicinity of Acq, where the French had forced back the 7th Panzer Division the previous evening. The French troops, under fire, withdrew from the river line, opening a potentially lethal breach between the allies. 17th Brigade found themselves facing the difficult manoeuvre of swinging back towards the road between Arras and Souchez. With the high ground at Mont-Saint-Eloi in German hands, the same batteries of the Royal Artillery which had supported the 7th Bn RTR at Beaurains once more found themselves covering the advance of the Infantry Tanks.
The British tanks advanced from the direction of Vimy Ridge, preventing the road being cut and pushing the Germans back. 5th Panzer Division, unlike Rommel’s 7th, was equipped with German made tanks. The Panzer I and IIs of the light companies were badly mauled by both the 2-pdrs in the six A12 Infantry Tank Mark IIs and the pompoms of the eighteen A11 Infantry Tank Marks Is. The Panzer III and IVs of the mixed companies were vulnerable to the 2-pdr, and within reasonable ranges, of the pompom. The 37mm gun on the panzers and the anti-tank companies, were unable to deal with the armour on the Infantry Tanks, though they did concentrate on tracks and other vulnerable spots, knocking some of the British tanks out of the fight. The 75mm short gun on the Panzer IV was discovered to have a different role from the close support tanks in British doctrine. The HE was dangerous, they even discovered that the Germans had armour piercing round, which proved deadly at short ranges. The German anti-tank guns found themselves particularly vulnerable to the HE shells from the pompoms on the A11s.
Having worked successfully with the Durham Light Infantry previously, it was the turn of the 9th Bn DLI who supported the advance of the tanks. Mont-Saint-Eloi was once more cleared, the Germans retreating back over the river. It came at the cost of half of the tanks of 7th Bn RTR, at least some of them would be repairable if there was both time and equipment.
On the eastern side of Arras, 150th Brigade and 13th Brigade were facing the 12th Infantry Division which by late afternoon had managed to penetrate over the river between the two British Brigades, penetrating as far as Bailleul. General Franklyn ordered 4th Bn RTR to move to block the Germans at Bailleul, and although the 4th Bn RTR had been reduced to two Companies from the fighting the day before, they did so, the Germans once again struggling to cope with the Infantry tanks, though Stukas and German artillery did their best to stop the British tanks, though in vain, as the 12th Infantry Division were pushed back to the river.
By late evening the front line had stabilised, but General Franklyn was aware that the men under his command and within Arras itself were exhausted with dwindling supplies. Having consulted with Lord Gort, the order was given for Petre Force and Franklyn’s force of his own 5th and Martel’s 50th Infantry Division were to withdraw under the cover of darkness back to the Canal Line at La Bassée, where Pol Force, including 25th and 139th Brigade were digging in. It was a withdrawal of just under twenty miles, but by dawn on 24 May the majority of the British forces had managed to successfully disengage and pass back to join the forces that were protecting the southern flank of the BEF. A number of rear-guard units, especially in the carrier platoons, eventually were captured or killed as they covered the withdrawal, Lieutenant Furness of the Welsh Guards being awarded a posthumous VC later for his actions covering the withdrawal of Petre Force from Arras. The losses to the tanks of 4th and 7th Bn RTR meant that they were amalgamated into a single unit.
NB text in italic differs from OTL. The RTR did hold back the 5th Panzer Division at Souchez, where the Major who had replaced the two dead Lt-Cols killed the previous day, now commanding the amalgamated battalions was himself killed. That punch stopped the Germans short of Vimy Ridge and kept one of the roads back from Arras open., but the 5th Panzers and 20th Motorised Divs had pushed the British back from the river to holding the roads on the west and the 12th Infantry had split the two Brigades on the east, in effect making the position at Arras unsustainable. Here both 5th and 50th Division withdraw in better order and with fewer casualties, which is important later. The RTR is still on the field, probably now just about 50 tanks, hence the amalgamation.
I think the narrative of the fighting arround Arras in this timeline is going to be that the BEF got the better of the Panzerwaffe in the individual engagements, but they just didn't have the numbers to stop the rot across the broad front.
The Germans won't be seen as anywhere near as intimidating and conversely, the Germans have pretty much come off second best against the Matilda I and II whenever they've enountered them.
The Germans won't be seen as anywhere near as intimidating and conversely, the Germans have pretty much come off second best against the Matilda I and II whenever they've enountered them.
Which could lead to the British getting over confident in the desert if the Germans still send the Afrika Corps to bail out the Italians.
Probably yes, that will likely be the the picture overall for both sides. The real devil is in the detail though.
For the Germans it would appear that tactically they are fine but their tanks are lacking, that needs fixing.
For the British Combined arms has been the winner so far so keep going with that. Also less complexity would be nice.
I wouldn't be too sure of that, for one the British brass will know they were beaten all the same. Yes they held there own but they were always on the defensive and holding a position is easier than taking it. They will also likely know about the qualities of the infantry tanks enabling them to salvage dicey situations. Also their are potentially going to be other things at play TTL in North Africa that will change the situation quite a bit.
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