Sir John Valentine Carden Survives. Part 2.
- Thread starter allanpcameron
- Start date
On the other hand their treatment of German POWs in WW1 was a world away from the horror of WW2 and had been exemplary.
And while they might have treated Chinese POWs and Civilians badly during the 30s until they did I suspect that the 'European' armies did not expect it and were horrified by what happened.
The problem was that the Japanese soldiers had become brutalised by their war in China and this brutality had unfortunately seeped into every level of that organisation by Dec 1941
I can only hope that ITTL the SOBs suffer from 'Matilda Fever' that haunts their sleep!
I suspect the opposite really. Instead of 'we're clearly superior so we'll treat you like shit' it'll be 'you hurt us, so we'll hurt you a hundredfold for that'.
Imperial Japan was savage, even to its own troops. Physical assault was the default disciplinary measure according to many of the Japanese accounts I've found. It really did come across as an exercise in inhumanity.
Imperial Japan was savage, even to its own troops. Physical assault was the default disciplinary measure according to many of the Japanese accounts I've found. It really did come across as an exercise in inhumanity.
That is probably going to go down in the great acts of British Tankers
I don't know enough about ww2 in the far East but the things to me that seem relevant are ......
How does the Japanese advance compare to otl ?
What are the forces available here compared to otl ?
What if anything has changed in the Japanese plans to take account for these losses and delays ?
What reinforcement can both sides expect that will militarily effect the campaign?
How does the Japanese advance compare to otl ?
What are the forces available here compared to otl ?
What if anything has changed in the Japanese plans to take account for these losses and delays ?
What reinforcement can both sides expect that will militarily effect the campaign?
The area was ceded OTL by the middle of December, so holding into the first week of January is a major achievement.
They're pulled some of the best units from the initial stages of the OTL Burma Campaign. So it's likely Burma either doesn't happen at all, or is yet another disaster for the Japanese.
The British have a significant counter-attack force working up.
To add to what MattII said it will also start to hurt the Japanese forces in the Malaysian Theater logistically hard as well since Japanese forces tend to ‘live off the land’ so basically what they can take from the locals and the British and Commonwealth Forces. They haven’t been able to get the same riches as OTL so right now their troops are probably starting to suffer hard.
Hm, with more Matildas arriving armed with the 3-inch howitzer, hopefully the War Office will take notice and ship a bunch of conversion kits so as to have every Matilda II equipped with the HE gun in the Pacific theatre. Japanese tanks being what they are, the 3-inch howitzer should definitely be enough even with just basic low-velocity AP ammunition, while better HE on every tank would solve a world of problems. Could even be the push needed to get the OQF 75mm, as they'd want to give the Valiants in the European theatre a respectable HE-slinging gun as well once they find out about Matildas in the Pacific, while still keeping some kind of acceptable armor-piercing because of the Panzerwaffe.
A fully amphibious tank with the howitzer is probably out of the cards for a while, though; but maybe someone could modify a design? Possibly the modified A10 chassis Carden is working on for the self-propelled guns and the tracked Bofors might do as a basis; stick a lightly-armored largish turret on it with the 3-inch, cover it in (detachable) boxes for flotation, and add a propeller and rudders...
A fully amphibious tank with the howitzer is probably out of the cards for a while, though; but maybe someone could modify a design? Possibly the modified A10 chassis Carden is working on for the self-propelled guns and the tracked Bofors might do as a basis; stick a lightly-armored largish turret on it with the 3-inch, cover it in (detachable) boxes for flotation, and add a propeller and rudders...
7 January 1942. Singapore.
allanpcameron
Donor
7 January 1942. Singapore.
General Auchinleck had arrived from India to look over the positions of his command fighting in Malaya. He’d had breakfast with Lt-Generals Percival, Heath and Mackay, along with Admiral Phillips who’d accompanied the General on his travels.
The fighting along the River Muda had been terrible, but Major-General Murray-Lyon had managed to get a good deal of his two Brigades evacuated. Intelligence suggested that the Japanese attack had been about two Regiments (the equivalent of a British Brigade), and that they would have suffered much worse than the British and Indian troops had. The fact that the Japanese weren’t following up seemed to confirm that. Losing Penang was a blow, but it was believed to be another pyrrhic victory for the Japanese.
Heath had noted that Murray-Lyon was feeling the strain of command, and that the losses his men were taking was hitting him hard. Auchinleck asked if he needed to be replaced, but Heath felt that he probably just needed a bit of respite and more support to continue to do the job of holding up the Japanese.
In one of his previous visits Auchinleck had ordered Percival to make more efforts to fortify the island of Singapore, just in case. Later that day the two men would make a tour of the progress that 18th Infantry Division had been working on. Mackay noted that the two Australian Divisions were approaching full capability, there was a Corps level exercise later in the week to put that to the test. The senior British officers of 18th Division would take part in that, but Mackay was keen on the 18th Division moving off the Island and into the Johore area to work more closely with the two Australian Divisions.
Admiral Phillips was able to give an update on the situation with Force Z, and his plans to firstly escort the two carriers with the Hurricanes for the RAF, and secondly to make another sortie into the South China Sea. The plan for a counterattack by Mackay’s Corps would be helped greatly if there was a strong naval presence on the western side of Malaya. The question of timing was discussed briefly and the various Staffs were ordered to get the plan sorted.
Auchinleck had updated the others on the situation in Burma, where Bill Slims’ Corps was starting to come together. It had been noted that Japanese activity in Thailand seemed to have lessened, which was perhaps another sign that they were having to use more of their forces against Malaya. Once the 9th Highland Division arrived from the Middle East to be added to the African and Indian Divisions, then Slim would have a force capable of pushing into Thailand to give the Japanese two fronts to worry about.
Looking over the situation map, Auchinleck asked about the east coast situation. Lt-Gen Heath noted that 9th Indian Division had been holding quite well. Major-General Barstow was grateful for the reinforcements he had received, and one of his weakened Brigades had taken up positions around Kuantan. There was still a real worry that the Japanese would attempt another amphibious assault on that coast. Phillips noted that British and Dutch submarines were screening the coast and some of the light forces were still available if needed.
Air-Vice Marshall Pulford noted that his aircraft were still keeping up reconnaissance flights over the South China Sea to try to give some kind of warning if another Japanese invasion fleet was spotted. The failure of the RAF to support the ground troops at the River Muda had been a matter of some considerable animosity between Murray-Lyon, Heath and Pulford. The arrival of the Hurricanes from the Middle East couldn’t come soon enough. Pulford was able to say that the Tomahawk fighters were progressing towards availability, but these would basically only replace the aircraft already lost, only the Hurricanes would really increase his capability.
To Auchinleck this was an old argument, and he was keen to try to mend fences between the Army and RAF. Some of the Desert Air Force people were on their way, and he hoped that the lessons learned by them in Army Cooperation would soon improve matters here. He also noted that the American fighters around Rangoon were doing particularly well, and that perhaps when the Tomahawks were ready, the tide would turn in the RAF’s favour.
Auchinleck was asked about closer ties with the Americans, Australians and Dutch. He noted that the political motivation from the Arcadia Conference in Washington DC was clearly something that both Roosevelt and Churchill were keen on. The practicalities of coordination were extremely difficult. The Dutch and Australians already had good cooperation between themselves and the British forces. It was just a pity that there hadn’t been more collaboration with the Americans before the Japanese attacks. After he left Singapore, Auchinleck was travelling on to Batavia for discussions with the Dutch, then to Darwin to see the situation in Northern Australia. There he was due to meet some of the Americans who were starting to arrive in Australia having been unable to get to the Philippines.
Admiral Phillips noted that the Americans were requesting help to evacuate non-essential personnel and bring in medicines and ammunition to Bataan. Some American submarines had been making that trip, and it was possible that some of the submarines coming from the Mediterranean might be used in this way. There had been some experience of doing this type of work back and forth to Malta. The two minelaying submarines, HMS Porpoise and Rorqual were on their way and would be particularly suitable with their large minelaying capacity. Phillips expressed the preference that laying minefields to protect the east coast of Malaya was the more pressing need, but none the less, supporting the Americans was going to be an important role moving forward.
Once the working breakfast was finished the various commanders went about their business. Auchinleck took the opportunity of having Percival alone a few times while touring the 18th Division to get a handle on how his subordinate was getting on. Auchinleck had every confidence in Heath and Mackay as Corps Commanders. Percival seemed to be doing well because he was primarily doing a Staff officers job of managing the army. If he had to take a more active role in the fighting, Auchinleck didn’t think he would have the experience necessary. He constantly found Percival to be very defensive minded, which up until now was fine, but a counterattack would need a different mindset. The arrival of Lt Gen Alexander in Rangoon, with Bill Slim as his Corps Commander was a good team. Auchinleck couldn’t help but feel that he should recommend that London send out a replacement for Percival sooner rather than later. Lieutenant General O’Connor had a proven track record, though whether his experience in the desert of north Africa would be transferable to the jungles of Asia would be an issue.
General Auchinleck had arrived from India to look over the positions of his command fighting in Malaya. He’d had breakfast with Lt-Generals Percival, Heath and Mackay, along with Admiral Phillips who’d accompanied the General on his travels.
The fighting along the River Muda had been terrible, but Major-General Murray-Lyon had managed to get a good deal of his two Brigades evacuated. Intelligence suggested that the Japanese attack had been about two Regiments (the equivalent of a British Brigade), and that they would have suffered much worse than the British and Indian troops had. The fact that the Japanese weren’t following up seemed to confirm that. Losing Penang was a blow, but it was believed to be another pyrrhic victory for the Japanese.
Heath had noted that Murray-Lyon was feeling the strain of command, and that the losses his men were taking was hitting him hard. Auchinleck asked if he needed to be replaced, but Heath felt that he probably just needed a bit of respite and more support to continue to do the job of holding up the Japanese.
In one of his previous visits Auchinleck had ordered Percival to make more efforts to fortify the island of Singapore, just in case. Later that day the two men would make a tour of the progress that 18th Infantry Division had been working on. Mackay noted that the two Australian Divisions were approaching full capability, there was a Corps level exercise later in the week to put that to the test. The senior British officers of 18th Division would take part in that, but Mackay was keen on the 18th Division moving off the Island and into the Johore area to work more closely with the two Australian Divisions.
Admiral Phillips was able to give an update on the situation with Force Z, and his plans to firstly escort the two carriers with the Hurricanes for the RAF, and secondly to make another sortie into the South China Sea. The plan for a counterattack by Mackay’s Corps would be helped greatly if there was a strong naval presence on the western side of Malaya. The question of timing was discussed briefly and the various Staffs were ordered to get the plan sorted.
Auchinleck had updated the others on the situation in Burma, where Bill Slims’ Corps was starting to come together. It had been noted that Japanese activity in Thailand seemed to have lessened, which was perhaps another sign that they were having to use more of their forces against Malaya. Once the 9th Highland Division arrived from the Middle East to be added to the African and Indian Divisions, then Slim would have a force capable of pushing into Thailand to give the Japanese two fronts to worry about.
Looking over the situation map, Auchinleck asked about the east coast situation. Lt-Gen Heath noted that 9th Indian Division had been holding quite well. Major-General Barstow was grateful for the reinforcements he had received, and one of his weakened Brigades had taken up positions around Kuantan. There was still a real worry that the Japanese would attempt another amphibious assault on that coast. Phillips noted that British and Dutch submarines were screening the coast and some of the light forces were still available if needed.
Air-Vice Marshall Pulford noted that his aircraft were still keeping up reconnaissance flights over the South China Sea to try to give some kind of warning if another Japanese invasion fleet was spotted. The failure of the RAF to support the ground troops at the River Muda had been a matter of some considerable animosity between Murray-Lyon, Heath and Pulford. The arrival of the Hurricanes from the Middle East couldn’t come soon enough. Pulford was able to say that the Tomahawk fighters were progressing towards availability, but these would basically only replace the aircraft already lost, only the Hurricanes would really increase his capability.
To Auchinleck this was an old argument, and he was keen to try to mend fences between the Army and RAF. Some of the Desert Air Force people were on their way, and he hoped that the lessons learned by them in Army Cooperation would soon improve matters here. He also noted that the American fighters around Rangoon were doing particularly well, and that perhaps when the Tomahawks were ready, the tide would turn in the RAF’s favour.
Auchinleck was asked about closer ties with the Americans, Australians and Dutch. He noted that the political motivation from the Arcadia Conference in Washington DC was clearly something that both Roosevelt and Churchill were keen on. The practicalities of coordination were extremely difficult. The Dutch and Australians already had good cooperation between themselves and the British forces. It was just a pity that there hadn’t been more collaboration with the Americans before the Japanese attacks. After he left Singapore, Auchinleck was travelling on to Batavia for discussions with the Dutch, then to Darwin to see the situation in Northern Australia. There he was due to meet some of the Americans who were starting to arrive in Australia having been unable to get to the Philippines.
Admiral Phillips noted that the Americans were requesting help to evacuate non-essential personnel and bring in medicines and ammunition to Bataan. Some American submarines had been making that trip, and it was possible that some of the submarines coming from the Mediterranean might be used in this way. There had been some experience of doing this type of work back and forth to Malta. The two minelaying submarines, HMS Porpoise and Rorqual were on their way and would be particularly suitable with their large minelaying capacity. Phillips expressed the preference that laying minefields to protect the east coast of Malaya was the more pressing need, but none the less, supporting the Americans was going to be an important role moving forward.
Once the working breakfast was finished the various commanders went about their business. Auchinleck took the opportunity of having Percival alone a few times while touring the 18th Division to get a handle on how his subordinate was getting on. Auchinleck had every confidence in Heath and Mackay as Corps Commanders. Percival seemed to be doing well because he was primarily doing a Staff officers job of managing the army. If he had to take a more active role in the fighting, Auchinleck didn’t think he would have the experience necessary. He constantly found Percival to be very defensive minded, which up until now was fine, but a counterattack would need a different mindset. The arrival of Lt Gen Alexander in Rangoon, with Bill Slim as his Corps Commander was a good team. Auchinleck couldn’t help but feel that he should recommend that London send out a replacement for Percival sooner rather than later. Lieutenant General O’Connor had a proven track record, though whether his experience in the desert of north Africa would be transferable to the jungles of Asia would be an issue.
Huh good chapter looks like those Hurricanes will be a godsend I mean they will be cannon armed and armoured as well which will probably hurt both the IJA and IJN aircraft. Still, though the Japanese forces are really starting to bleed here even with their breakthrough they are going to be burned out.
Shame Ian MacAlister Stewart isn't a general he would be an ideal candidate outside of Slim to command in Malayasia.
Shame Ian MacAlister Stewart isn't a general he would be an ideal candidate outside of Slim to command in Malayasia.
They already are, they just don't know how bad yet. In all probability the Malay Barrier is secure until after the next monsoon, by which time the Japanese will be desperate.
Officer of both IJN and in particular the IJA will probably deny it until its way to late.
Ramp-Rat
Monthly Donor
So the Japanese have at great cost and nearly thirty days later, finally managed to get across the Muda river line. What they haven’t managed to do, is get inside the British C3 loop, cause the various British forces to collapse, or induce the administration of the colony to fail and degenerate. Outside the immediate area of conflict the British administration will be tightening its control over the civil affairs of Malaya, as it switches from a basically sleepy light control that mostly defaults to the locals and settler interests, to those of the military requirements. So things like finning troops who damage a rubber tree in training, will go by the bored, and extend negotiations over pay rates for dock workers in Singapore, will be terminated, just pay them what is needed right now, we will sort out the mess later. The famous case of the president of the golf club in Singapore who prevented the establishment of an anti aircraft gun site, because it would spoil the greens and fairways, and thus his game of golf. While even ITTL this would occur, as this event happened before the Japanese invasion, once the invasion has taken place, the rules will change, and such an event will quickly see the instigator, expelled from the colony, as an undesirable who is not conclusive to the maintenance of good order.
In the large area behind the front line, especially close to Singapore, the British are able to prepare newly arrived troops for service in theatre. While large numbers will have seen action elsewhere, the particular conditions of the Malayan Peninsula, and its climate require troops to be acclimatised and trained in all aspects of jungle warfare. In addition, troops and their commanders, need to be apprised of the peculiarities of Japanese tactics, which differ significantly from those of the Germans and Italians. Unlike IOTL were troops were thrown in to action without acclimatisation, training or induction into local conditions and Japanese tactics. The troops that form the next stop line through which the forces involved in the defence of the Muda river line, will retire through, will be fully prepared for what is to come. While the units retiring will be able to move into safe and prepared accommodation while they can reform, rest and be re-equipped, in preparation for their next turn in action.
The Royal Navy is in a much better position ITTL than it was IOTL, as is the Airforce, both while they have suffered major reversals, which includes major navel surface units. However both are receiving significant reinforcements, and are slowly gaining in strength, especially in the air. Where the British are benefiting from the same advantages that they did in the Battle of Britain. Principally that, British aircrew shot down and surviving stand a good chance of returning to service, even if they are in Japanese territory. Where as any Japanese aircraft that is shot down is a double loss, both aircraft and aircrew, no Japanese aircrew that survive being shot down are getting back. And unlike the British who are receiving a steady stream of replacement aircraft, trained crews, spares and ground personnel, the Japanese are already operating on a shoestring, and things will only get worse. This applies to the Japanese ground forces as well, who given their greater expenditure of ammunition, especially artillery ammunition, will rapidly be coming close to running out, as they did IOTL. Unless the Japanese can quickly overcome the British defences and push on to capture Singapore, they are soon going to have to go on the defensive. And once that happens all of their plans for action in Malaya, Burma and the DEI, will have to change. The fact that the British are already planning how to provide limited relief to the Americans in the Philippines, shows just how much events are diverging from those of OTL.
RR.
In the large area behind the front line, especially close to Singapore, the British are able to prepare newly arrived troops for service in theatre. While large numbers will have seen action elsewhere, the particular conditions of the Malayan Peninsula, and its climate require troops to be acclimatised and trained in all aspects of jungle warfare. In addition, troops and their commanders, need to be apprised of the peculiarities of Japanese tactics, which differ significantly from those of the Germans and Italians. Unlike IOTL were troops were thrown in to action without acclimatisation, training or induction into local conditions and Japanese tactics. The troops that form the next stop line through which the forces involved in the defence of the Muda river line, will retire through, will be fully prepared for what is to come. While the units retiring will be able to move into safe and prepared accommodation while they can reform, rest and be re-equipped, in preparation for their next turn in action.
The Royal Navy is in a much better position ITTL than it was IOTL, as is the Airforce, both while they have suffered major reversals, which includes major navel surface units. However both are receiving significant reinforcements, and are slowly gaining in strength, especially in the air. Where the British are benefiting from the same advantages that they did in the Battle of Britain. Principally that, British aircrew shot down and surviving stand a good chance of returning to service, even if they are in Japanese territory. Where as any Japanese aircraft that is shot down is a double loss, both aircraft and aircrew, no Japanese aircrew that survive being shot down are getting back. And unlike the British who are receiving a steady stream of replacement aircraft, trained crews, spares and ground personnel, the Japanese are already operating on a shoestring, and things will only get worse. This applies to the Japanese ground forces as well, who given their greater expenditure of ammunition, especially artillery ammunition, will rapidly be coming close to running out, as they did IOTL. Unless the Japanese can quickly overcome the British defences and push on to capture Singapore, they are soon going to have to go on the defensive. And once that happens all of their plans for action in Malaya, Burma and the DEI, will have to change. The fact that the British are already planning how to provide limited relief to the Americans in the Philippines, shows just how much events are diverging from those of OTL.
RR.