Russian Empire aids the Union in the Civil War

Neshomancer

Neshomancer

Quoted from an essay I found, with emphasis added:

Russia was the first nation to stand behind the Union in friendliness. The nature of this relationship was not one of support - the Russian leadership did not love democracy - but one of convenience. Russia aligned itself with the United States because England and France, Russia’s enemies, aligned themselves more closely with the Confederate States. Although the Russian aristocracy had no use for democracy, they feared insurgency. Along with all other conservative monarchs in Europe, Tsar Alexander II would not recognize the Confederacy mainly because he considered it a revolutionary regime in an era of frequent revolutions and regime changes in Europe. It is apparent that the Tsar, as well as other monarchs, feared that the insurrection mounted by the Confederacy would spark the beginning of another round of revolutions throughout Europe. It is interesting to note at this point that extremely few European nations retain their monarchs a century later.

Russia had a second motive to align itself behind the United States. A reunited United States would potentially be a powerful ally for the Russians, an ally that Russia desperately needed after losing the Crimean War. In 1863, Tsar Alexander II ordered the Russian Atlantic Fleet and the Pacific Fleet to United States ports for the winter. Many construed this action to mean that Russia was openly aiding the Union and that the Russian Navy would supplement the Federal Navy against the Confederacy. However, this apparent meaning proved false. Tensions between Russia and England were escalating over Russian actions against the Polish[1] and war between the two was on the horizon. The Tsar sent the navy to the United States so that the naval fleets would not be trapped by the winter ice in arctic Russia ports. An underlying motive probably was to warm American support for Russia in case of war with England.
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So the PoD is as follows the Tsar does diecide to openly aid the US in 1863 with naval and let's say some small to moderate army support in order to cement future good relations with the US. How does this effect the Civil War and Europe?

*[1] The January Uprising
 

Daylight Savings

Honestly I think it hurts more than it helps. I could be wrong but technologically I don't think the Russians would have much to contribute. America was pretty innovative in their weaponry at the time and was more industrialized than Russia anyway. In both naval and ground operations they wouldn't be able to send sufficient numbers to have much effect. The only thing they would be able to do for certain is scare Britain and France into thinking that Russia was trying to increase it's influence in the Americas, which would likely push them closer to supporting the Confederacy. And Britain and France can do for the Confederacy everything Russia can't do for the Union, namely supplying weapons, money and ships to break the blockade.
 

MikeTurcotte

I can't imagine the US accepting. Oh, we'll take the moral support, the Russian Ambassador making speeches in support, a magnificent state visit by a Russian Grand Duke or whatever, but Russian troops? No way - especially if it inflames French and British opinion against the Union.

Lincoln would not be keen on entagling the US in a potential European conflict between Russia and whoever, and the odd Russian corps added to the Army of the Potomac isn't enough to make it appealing either.

I can just see it - an alt-war in 1871 between the Ottomans (supported by the British) and the Russians - with Hancock and a US Army Corps helping to besiege Constantinople, the whole time wondering what on Earth theny were doing there...

Mike Turcotte
 
Neshomancer

Neshomancer

Daylight Savings said:
Honestly I think it hurts more than it helps. I could be wrong but technologically I don't think the Russians would have much to contribute. America was pretty innovative in their weaponry at the time and was more industrialized than Russia anyway. In both naval and ground operations they wouldn't be able to send sufficient numbers to have much effect. The only thing they would be able to do for certain is scare Britain and France into thinking that Russia was trying to increase it's influence in the Americas, which would likely push them closer to supporting the Confederacy. And Britain and France can do for the Confederacy everything Russia can't do for the Union, namely supplying weapons, money and ships to break the blockade.
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So are you saying this leads to a CSA victory then? Correct me if I'm wrong. If Britian and France did intervene because of Russia that might be the case, I don't know. Of couse German Unification is less than a decade away. Maybe with France distracted Prussia and it's allies decide to try somrthing early? That is if the UK and France intervene at allof course.
 

Johnrankins

One thing England and France have to worry about if they intervene is that a war with the US might lead to a war with Russia as well if the US is its ally. I think that thought will make them cautious.
 

SRT

If memory serves the King of Thailand also offered Lincoln some elephant troops. Maybe there could be an international brigade sort of thing, like in the Spanish Civil War (one of those was named the Lincoln Brigade, you know).

But realistically the elephant troops were refused because they would've been killed and it would've created an international incident, probably the same reason Russian troops wouldn't be wanted. Also, nobody wants foreign troops in their country.

You'd need Russia to have a more pressing reason to help out the Union. What does the Union have that Russia wants? Is it potential help against France/Britain? Then France/Britain have to help the CSA more before Russia will want to get involved.
 
Neshomancer

Neshomancer

SRT said:
If memory serves the King of Thailand also offered Lincoln some elephant troops. Maybe there could be an international brigade sort of thing, like in the Spanish Civil War (one of those was named the Lincoln Brigade, you know).

But realistically the elephant troops were refused because they would've been killed and it would've created an international incident, probably the same reason Russian troops wouldn't be wanted. Also, nobody wants foreign troops in their country.

You'd need Russia to have a more pressing reason to help out the Union. What does the Union have that Russia wants? Is it potential help against France/Britain? Then France/Britain have to help the CSA more before Russia will want to get involved.
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Russia desperately needs an ally after the Crimean War, tensions with Britian are high at the moment and could come to war, and the Tsar is worried a successful CSA could spark revolution fever in Europe? Are thise not good enough reasons to aid the Union?
 

Johnrankins

SRT said:
If memory serves the King of Thailand also offered Lincoln some elephant troops. Maybe there could be an international brigade sort of thing, like in the Spanish Civil War (one of those was named the Lincoln Brigade, you know).

But realistically the elephant troops were refused because they would've been killed and it would've created an international incident, probably the same reason Russian troops wouldn't be wanted. Also, nobody wants foreign troops in their country.

You'd need Russia to have a more pressing reason to help out the Union. What does the Union have that Russia wants? Is it potential help against France/Britain? Then France/Britain have to help the CSA more before Russia will want to get involved.
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He didn't refuse because he was worried about an international incident if they got killed. After all the King of Thailand would look like an idiot if he expected none of them to be killed if they went to war! He refused because elephants are costly to maintain and you can maintain a much larger unit of horse cavalry for the same money. Since elephants aren't bulletproof you are getting far more bank for your buck.
 

King Gorilla

Johnrankins said:
He didn't refuse because he was worried about an international incident if they got killed. After all the King of Thailand would look like an idiot if he expected none of them to be killed if they went to war! He refused because elephants are costly to maintain and you can maintain a much larger unit of horse cavalry for the same money. Since elephants aren't bulletproof you are getting far more bank for your buck.
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If only someone enlisted the aid of one PT Barnum to use the elephant brigade in a cross country promotional war bond campaign...
 

tallthinkev

I can't see how the Russians could get troops to the U.S. If the British and French get wind of this they would, at the very least, blockade them. To get into the North Sea not easy and from the Black Sea a no go.
This would leave going by the west. Another no go, as the railway was not yet finished.
I don't think the British or the French would get closer to the C.S.A. as they still wanted slavery.
OK some support in the way of words from the Russians and thats about it
 

Keith Robertsson

This is the story I heard years ago aboput the Imperial Navy's port visits. When the Union declared a blockade, the Brits and the French said they would only recognize it if there were one navy vessel per so many miles. IOW. they wanted the union to blockade the whole Confederate coast not just the obvious sea ports. The Union didn't have enough ships without stripping raidable northern ports bare. The Russian ships allowed USN ships to take up blockade duty. the thinking being if a CSN raider hit say NYC, the Russians would be good guests and blow it out of the water.
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
I'd imagine a TL 191-esque route where Russia ends up joining the US-German-Austro-Hungarian Central Powers if Britain and France joins the CS.
 
Neshomancer

Neshomancer

Even if Britian and France intervene in this scenario I think the Union still wins the war. Britian and France would likely attackRussia in Europe, diverting forces from helping the CSA. The Royal Navy going up against the USN and the Imperial Russian Navy would be interesting though. However if the US does win if Britian and Frane intervened on behalf of the CSA that will cool relations considerably.

So the US gets gets closer to Russia, and farther away from England and France diplomatically. Perhaps a larger millitary due to a potientally hostle Canada to the north. Franco-Prussian War still happens so we have a unifed Germany and we might see them ally with Russia and the US growing closer to those to powers.

World War I might shake out to be Germany, Russia, and Austria Hungary vs. Britian, France and the Ottoman Empire with the US sending aid and pehaps eventually joining the former. Howver we'd need a different cause as with such an alignment the assianation of Franz Ferdinand won't be the spark.
 

MarshalBraginsky

Banned
What of Serbia, Romania and Bulgaria? Would they be allied with Germany, Russia, Austria-Hungary and the USA? Another thing, another potential powder keg for WWI could be an incident in the Pacific.
 
Neshomancer

Neshomancer

Sibirskaya said:
What of Serbia, Romania and Bulgaria? Would they be allied with Germany, Russia, Austria-Hungary and the USA? Another thing, another potential powder keg for WWI could be an incident in the Pacific.
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Serbia and Romania were allied to Russia OTL, I would assume the same here unless sone can think of a good reason otherwise and Bulgaria was a Central Power, unless its principle ally was the Ottoman Empire I assume that stays the same as well unless someone can refute.
 
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