Asking for a map I am probably going to make sometime in the future, what are some plausible alternate border settlements in Europe after WW2 given the OTL war? There can be changes as far back as Yalta and other wartime agreements about the state of Europe post-war, but assume that the war goes pretty much the same as OTL. Could Germany keep some of the eastern territories? Could Italy end up smaller? Maybe some of the smaller powers like Benelux and Czechoslovakia make some gains against Germany? I've seen some plans where the Benelux countries are supposed to gain some border territories from Germany which would keep more of Hinterpommern and Silesia. How might those changes affect those countries afterwards and also the broader Cold War?
Plausible alternate borders in Europe post-WW2?
Perhaps Finland could keep slightly more territory. Polish border might be bit more stretched towards east and Germany keep bit more on east too. But in other hand Netherlands could get some more lands and Saarland would be annexed by France. I can't see Czechoslovakia even wanting anything. It had pretty good borders and taking more lands would mean that it has expel more Germans. Or Germany could be completely or partially divided further like independent Bavaria. South Tyrol could be returned to Austria. There might be possibility that Italy is allowed to keep Istria. Or it could lost Valle d'Aosta to France.
Is it possible somehow to change the East -West border somehow? I think that if Lets say Thuringen, Sachen-Anhalt and Mecklenburg end up in the Western Sphere, East Germany might keep some regions that went to Poland OTL. Since East Germany might be too small to form an "independent" country (and the Soviet Union screwing over Poland, seems to be totaly within character. And with a larger Western Germany, you could even see western countries getting some (more) territorial compensation, since Western Germany is strong enough to lose some lands and still be a good buffer in case of the Soviets attack
Perhaps if war go for Soviets bit worsely and FDR is more willingful to limit power of Soviet bloc. And perhaps even better if W-Allies manage to arrive earlier to Thuringia and Sachsen-Anhalt and liberate Czechia.
Just off the top of the head:
- IIRC, Franklin Roosevelt wanted Stalin to cede Lviv to Poland to help "legitimise" it in the eyes of the world. May marginally improve the USSR's postwar public image.
- The West refuses to cede Thuringia and the lands north to the USSR. A fairly serious crisis but not going to lead to another world war in '45.
-The Netherlands annexing part of northwestern Germany west of the Ems River.
-Not sure if this was ever considered, but French annexation of the Saarland?
- IIRC, Franklin Roosevelt wanted Stalin to cede Lviv to Poland to help "legitimise" it in the eyes of the world. May marginally improve the USSR's postwar public image.
- The West refuses to cede Thuringia and the lands north to the USSR. A fairly serious crisis but not going to lead to another world war in '45.
-The Netherlands annexing part of northwestern Germany west of the Ems River.
-Not sure if this was ever considered, but French annexation of the Saarland?
- Better relations between Tito and Stalin can mean an american support for Italy at the Paris Peace Conference regarding more favorable border in Istria; as a consequences there is a different division of South Tyrol between Italy and Austria.
- The soviet occupied zone can become a separate communist nation while the remaing part of Austria can simply be absorbed by West Germany as it was planned
- Secretary of state stay silent for a little more and the communist concede the Oder-Bober-Queiss as the eastern border of Germany
- Belgium crisis in the immediate postwar is worse and cause a pacific but irremedable division of the nation, with France and Netheland absorbing the two part
- The soviet occupied zone can become a separate communist nation while the remaing part of Austria can simply be absorbed by West Germany as it was planned
- Secretary of state stay silent for a little more and the communist concede the Oder-Bober-Queiss as the eastern border of Germany
- Belgium crisis in the immediate postwar is worse and cause a pacific but irremedable division of the nation, with France and Netheland absorbing the two part
Yeah. It is pretty popular trope but I haven't ever seen any source for this idea. It seems that you need whole negotiations over Austria going messy before division and Anchluss 2.0. happening.
There really aren't any, unless the war is substantially different. Even before Yalta, the US/UK had agreed to all the major border changes effected in 1945 in eastern Europe by the Soviets. No one in western Europe had any real interest in border changes.
One cute little change that might have come off: suppose the Slovak rebellion of September 1944 had succeeded, and the Germans were driven out of Slovakia by the Slovaks with Soviet support. (OTL the Germans held the Soviets in the Carpathians until they had crushed the Slovaks.) In that case, Slovakia might have a case for remaining independent. It would be as a Soviet puppet state, but not reabsorbed into Czechoslovakia.
One cute little change that might have come off: suppose the Slovak rebellion of September 1944 had succeeded, and the Germans were driven out of Slovakia by the Slovaks with Soviet support. (OTL the Germans held the Soviets in the Carpathians until they had crushed the Slovaks.) In that case, Slovakia might have a case for remaining independent. It would be as a Soviet puppet state, but not reabsorbed into Czechoslovakia.
ITYM "not to seize Lviv from Poland" - it was Polish territory.
Germany and Austria’s new losing: (or what if Henry A. Wallace become US president?)
-South Schleswig to Denmark
-Hellgoland to UK
-Bakker-Schut Plan-C to Netherlands
-Mosel-Saar delta to Luxembourg
-Saarland and bavarian Pfalz to France
-Vorarlberg to... Vorarlberg
~1000km² under Klagenfurt to Yugoslavia (UK agreed to give back this territory to SFRY (soviet ally) if Albania (soviet ally too) transfered 40th parallel to Greece (British ally))
-Burgenland to Jewish state
Italy and Albania:
-Aosta to France
-Drin’s North Bank to Yugoslavia
-40th parallel to Greece
Hungary:
-Northwest to Jewish State (population ≈ 2,5 mln)
-Baranya-Baja for Yugoslavia (maybe AP Vojvodina would divide between BB and Central Serbia...)
-Cistisa for Romania (mixed Romanian-Moldovan-Hungarian-Gypsy population now)
P.S. Hungary was most loyal Reich's satellite. Also Honvédség soldiers on Eastern Front were worse even the SS.
Romania:
-Northern Dobrudja to USSR
Bulgaria:
-western Pirin Macedonia to Yugoslavia (but maybe Stalin transfered something of Dobrudja to them for compensation, who knows?)
Want to knows your opinions...
-South Schleswig to Denmark
-Hellgoland to UK
-Bakker-Schut Plan-C to Netherlands
-Mosel-Saar delta to Luxembourg
-Saarland and bavarian Pfalz to France
-Vorarlberg to... Vorarlberg
~1000km² under Klagenfurt to Yugoslavia (UK agreed to give back this territory to SFRY (soviet ally) if Albania (soviet ally too) transfered 40th parallel to Greece (British ally))
-Burgenland to Jewish state
Italy and Albania:
-Aosta to France
-Drin’s North Bank to Yugoslavia
-40th parallel to Greece
Hungary:
-Northwest to Jewish State (population ≈ 2,5 mln)
-Baranya-Baja for Yugoslavia (maybe AP Vojvodina would divide between BB and Central Serbia...)
-Cistisa for Romania (mixed Romanian-Moldovan-Hungarian-Gypsy population now)
P.S. Hungary was most loyal Reich's satellite. Also Honvédség soldiers on Eastern Front were worse even the SS.
Romania:
-Northern Dobrudja to USSR
Bulgaria:
-western Pirin Macedonia to Yugoslavia (but maybe Stalin transfered something of Dobrudja to them for compensation, who knows?)
Want to knows your opinions...
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Czechoslovakia could definitely keep Subcarpathia, it might have gone easily this way. Getting Lusatia (either protectorate or outright annexation) is plausible, had Beneš & co. expressed interest. Getting Glatz is possible, but in a TL where Poland gets the whole SIlesia (as in OTL), expect Poland to try to get it at any price.
Solving the Cieszyn/Těšín "issue" by redrawing the borders slightly might happen as well.
Germany gets bit harsher losses but probably fine for that. Jewish state in Europe anyway is not going to happen. Jews won't want that there and Zionists wouldn't accept that. And peace for Hungary is damned horrible. Trianon now looks pretty mild. Italy looks pretty acceptable. Not much changes from OTL. Anyway why parts of Albania are ceded to Greece? It was victim not Axis nation. Bulgaria looks OK. But Romanians are not going to happy when them become landlocked nation.
Anyway, how you think being with Finland? Same as OTL?
EDIT: And totally forgotten: Independent Voralrberg not make any sense IMO.
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Polish-Soviet border in Prussia could be further north:
And if Stalin died a bit earlier border between Poland and Ukrainian SSR would be a bit different:
en.wikipedia.org
OTOH if Stalin lived a bit longer there would be another, bigger exchange (Hrubieszów for Khyriv).
Proposals and War Aims That Didn't Happen Map Thread
I came across this today when researching my possible MOTF entry... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captaincy_General_of_Chile#/media/File:Captaincy_General_of_Chile,_1775.svg
www.alternatehistory.com
And if Stalin died a bit earlier border between Poland and Ukrainian SSR would be a bit different:
1951 Polish–Soviet territorial exchange - Wikipedia
OTOH if Stalin lived a bit longer there would be another, bigger exchange (Hrubieszów for Khyriv).
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-I don't think that Arabs are better neighbours...
-Then - Trianon, now - Quadrianon
-For greeks, part of Albania = part of Duce's Italy. Also Cham Albanians collaborated with Axis forces.
-Austrians and Hungarians are not going to happy too.
-Yes, Finland = OTL
-Edit: as far i know, after WW1 Vorarlberg wanted to join economical union with Switzerland and Liechtenstein...
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Stalin sees how many people in Galicia joined the SS decides to make it Poland’s problem and gives it back.
then if we do this it happens in Poland which will have repercussions for US Polish relations for decades
then if we do this it happens in Poland which will have repercussions for US Polish relations for decades
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These were the lands of the Second Polish Republic, so they simply returned to their natural owners. The Vistula campaign will simply cover a larger region and more people.