Ocean of Storms: A Timeline of A Scientific America

I actually haven't read it.

Can you give me the 30-second version? I'm curious how it relates.
(Maybe hide the response behind a Spoiler window for those readers who like to do their own research.)

Thanks!
Teeth of the Tiger is a later Tom Clancy book, and IMVHO a waste of paper.

It covers a government agency dedicated to assassinations, including in the US, of threats to the country. No judicial oversight, no trial, just poison them. President Ryan had written blank pardons for all of the members to supposedly protect them if ever arrested. The whole operation was presented as a good thing to protect the country.

Of course, Clancy sort of overlooked the fact that premeditated murder is usually prosecuted at the state level, and thus not eligible for presidential pardon. It was the last of his books that I read.
The only ones I still have in my house are Hunt for Red October and Red Storm Rising.
 
Teeth of the Tiger is a later Tom Clancy book, and IMVHO a waste of paper.

It covers a government agency dedicated to assassinations, including in the US, of threats to the country. No judicial oversight, no trial, just poison them. President Ryan had written blank pardons for all of the members to supposedly protect them if ever arrested. The whole operation was presented as a good thing to protect the country.

Of course, Clancy sort of overlooked the fact that premeditated murder is usually prosecuted at the state level, and thus not eligible for presidential pardon. It was the last of his books that I read.
The only ones I still have in my house are Hunt for Red October and Red Storm Rising.
That was on of the many things in the later series I did not like. Like he really liked to go after Democrats too.
 
The only ones I still have in my house are Hunt for Red October and Red Storm Rising.
I always preferred Storming Intrepid to Hunt for Red October. They basically cover similar ideas (a hijacking of valuable state property across the Iron Curtain), but in Red October, Clancy tends to paint the Soviets as incompetent and therefore they never come off as a scary villain to me.

In contrast, Storming Intrepid has very clinical and calculating villains and our heroes start out behind the 8-ball and have to figure out things on the fly.
A much superior story IMVHO.

And Clancy was a little too enamored with the right wing. I do wonder what he'd say if he was still alive. I feel vaguely fortunate that I don't have to find out.
 
I always preferred Storming Intrepid to Hunt for Red October. They basically cover similar ideas (a hijacking of valuable state property across the Iron Curtain), but in Red October, Clancy tends to paint the Soviets as incompetent and therefore they never come off as a scary villain to me.

In contrast, Storming Intrepid has very clinical and calculating villains and our heroes start out behind the 8-ball and have to figure out things on the fly.
A much superior story IMVHO.

And Clancy was a little too enamored with the right wing. I do wonder what he'd say if he was still alive. I feel vaguely fortunate that I don't have to find out.
It is the only... benefit of him an Vince Flynn being no longer around is we don't have to find out.

But still government kill squads with no congressional oversight (which they would loudly say no to operating in the states) will lead to abuse and problems.
 
But still government kill squads with no congressional oversight (which they would loudly say no to operating in the states) will lead to abuse and problems.
They would say no to them operating outside the states as well. I would be surprised if they don't manage to kill some disgusting people that are not criminals--and the US allows people to hold whatever views they want.

I am VERY MUCH looking forward to this blowing up in someone's face. Even worse, even rumors of it will fuel anti-government conspiracy theories--tat just happen to have some truth behind them.
 
They would say no to them operating outside the states as well. I would be surprised if they don't manage to kill some disgusting people that are not criminals--and the US allows people to hold whatever views they want.

I am VERY MUCH looking forward to this blowing up in someone's face. Even worse, even rumors of it will fuel anti-government conspiracy theories--tat just happen to have some truth behind them.
It will perpetuate the situation it wants to avoid.
 
Of course, Clancy sort of overlooked the fact that premeditated murder is usually prosecuted at the state level, and thus not eligible for presidential pardon. It was the last of his books that I read.
The only ones I still have in my house are Hunt for Red October and Red Storm Rising.
IIRC, a lot of his later stuff was msotly ghost written. But I agree, it just was....

Eugh.

Everything past Bear and the Dragon, and that in particular was tettering very closely on the edge for me, don't feel like Clancy stuff.
 
Chilling.

But audience responses are very much wishcasting.

For one, we have no idea how often programs like this leak because we have an incomplete data set. We have no idea what the denominator even is…

Secondly, I personally doubt the degree of controversy this would stir up if it leaks in 20-30 years, during which time period it worked. Folks looking back at this in TTL’s present day would, IMO, simply take the “eggs, omelets, breaking” attitude as we so often do when events are at a recent remove of time.
 
Chilling.

But audience responses are very much wishcasting.

For one, we have no idea how often programs like this leak because we have an incomplete data set. We have no idea what the denominator even is…

Secondly, I personally doubt the degree of controversy this would stir up if it leaks in 20-30 years, during which time period it worked. Folks looking back at this in TTL’s present day would, IMO, simply take the “eggs, omelets, breaking” attitude as we so often do when events are at a recent remove of time.
You assume they can keep this a secret 20-30 years... 2004 likely means a Democrat comes to office and I have a feeling the intelligence people won’t tell them. 20 some years of Republicans in the White House? I suspect I know where ITTL intelligence agencies are more loyal...

But this thing leaks when something goes wrong.

And I am not sure how there are this many Republican presidents? What did the democrats do not to get elected?
 
I have to disagree that this will get out, it's very much likely this has happened before and will likely again. The main key is to keep it LOW key and spread out over time. The "bad guys" here WILL get to a point where they will assume its an attack on them, especially if it clusters in a short amount of time. They will then retaliate

A bit of a bigger problem is public perception if the official's do NOT find someone blame for this then the public is going to see this as ineffective and loudly demand a "visible" response and an obvious closure. It's very much a "Catch 22" type situation.

Randy
 
I have to disagree that this will get out, it's very much likely this has happened before and will likely again. The main key is to keep it LOW key and spread out over time. The "bad guys" here WILL get to a point where they will assume its an attack on them, especially if it clusters in a short amount of time. They will then retaliate
Yeah after a point, some of these guys will get suspicious and lash out. Also it does nothing to deter the lone wolves.

But these guys will get suspicious...

Eventually if an operator doesn’t reveal stuff, the terrorists get lucky and capture an operator. It will blow up in the intel agencies faces when it solidifies the groups feelings and may win them sympathy.
A bit of a bigger problem is public perception if the official's do NOT find someone blame for this then the public is going to see this as ineffective and loudly demand a "visible" response and an obvious closure. It's very much a "Catch 22" type situation.


Randy
The public will demand public arrests, raids, trials, and so forth. All this done in secret, makes people think nothing is going on.
 
Yeah after a point, some of these guys will get suspicious and lash out. Also it does nothing to deter the lone wolves.

But these guys will get suspicious...

Eventually if an operator doesn’t reveal stuff, the terrorists get lucky and capture an operator. It will blow up in the intel agencies faces when it solidifies the groups feelings and may win them sympathy.
Mind, this ain't aimed at the lone wolves, but the funders. The coordinators.

Stuff like that.

As for capturing, well, that relies a lot on luck. Given it's being done by professionals, vs well, people far less so, I can't see that happening.
 
Yeah after a point, some of these guys will get suspicious and lash out. Also it does nothing to deter the lone wolves.

But these guys will get suspicious...

Eventually if an operator doesn’t reveal stuff, the terrorists get lucky and capture an operator. It will blow up in the intel agencies faces when it solidifies the groups feelings and may win them sympathy.

The main issue is most of these folks already believe the "Government" is against them and coming to get them, it doesn't take much to push this over the edge into lashing back. I'd think that another aspect of this would be to push wedges into the splits already inherent in these groups, (they are FAR from uniform or organized and there are some pretty big "feuds" that come along with their differing philosophies and goals) but the more it's in the shadows the more the groups can blame the 'government' and patch over the cracks. Of course a 'side-effect' of them lashing out is that they aren't going to actually have any "proof" the public would buy, (barring said leaks) then it's going to make them look even more like "mad-dogs" to the public

The public will demand public arrests, raids, trials, and so forth. All this done in secret, makes people think nothing is going on.

Something visible will have to be done, or course that leaves the possibility of setting up a "the noose was closing in and they took the cowards way out instead" but that's a possible situation that could very well blow up in the governments face.

Randy
 
And I am not sure how there are this many Republican presidents? What did the democrats do not to get elected?
I'd suspect this is due to Republicans tacking toward the centre rather than the evangelicals and social conservatives (as @BowOfOrion notes in the update where McCain recruits Powell), coupled by strong, popular GOP candidates (the aforementioned McCain and Powell) and a rally-around-the-flag effect (due to landing Americans on Mars, as well as effectively winning a brief foreign war and suffering two major domestic terror incidents, the second of which claimed the life of the first American on Mars).

Circling back to that last point - I'm a bit surprised that there isn't a larger national (or even international) outpouring of grief and rage over Cale Fletcher's death. Maybe it's muted as it's subsumed into the general post-9/11 sentiment, but I would think the death of an international hero whose contributions to exploration rival those of Columbus, da Gama, Wright or Borman would hit a hell of a lot harder than it did here. (In fairness, this is probably a tinge of projection on my part over losing a second main POV character, and - no offense meant to the late, lamented Tom Wheaton - my favourite OOS personality...)
 
I'm a bit surprised that there isn't a larger national (or even international) outpouring of grief and rage over Cale Fletcher's death. Maybe it's muted as it's subsumed into the general post-9/11 sentiment, but I would think the death of an international hero whose contributions to exploration rival those of Columbus, da Gama, Wright or Borman would hit a hell of a lot harder than it did here. (In fairness, this is probably a tinge of projection on my part over losing a second main POV character, and - no offense meant to the late, lamented Tom Wheaton - my favourite OOS personality...)
On that front, it's a combination of two factors. For one, like most authors, I put a lot of myself into my characters, and to languish in an outpouring of love and grief felt a bit self-serving. I don't doubt that the world would mourn Cale Fletcher in grand ways, but I didn't want to deal with those emotions directly.

Another reason that has weighed on me over the last 48 hours was that I have recently learned of the death of Cale Yarborough, who was a model and basis for Cale Fletcher. Cale Yarborough, a South Carolina native, race car driver, football player, skydiver, and all-around adventurer, was my first childhood hero and has been an influence on my life and work since I could pick up a crayon.

I'd encourage any of you to read his autobiography. He had a life that was akin to Indiana Jones crossed with Richard Petty (who was a long-time friend and rival). Cale Yarborough had one of the great American personalities that managed to burn both long and bright. He passed away this weekend at the age of 84.

If you're so inclined, I hope you'll take a look at this youtube clip showing some highlights from his racing career. If it sparks an interest in his life, then this post will have been more than worth it. The man had a thousand stories and none of them were boring.

I'd suspect this is due to Republicans tacking toward the centre rather than the evangelicals and social conservatives (as @BowOfOrion notes in the update where McCain recruits Powell), coupled by strong, popular GOP candidates (the aforementioned McCain and Powell) and a rally-around-the-flag effect (due to landing Americans on Mars, as well as effectively winning a brief foreign war and suffering two major domestic terror incidents, the second of which claimed the life of the first American on Mars).
I think this analysis is fairly close to the mark. I have devoted many paragraphs to a long-form explanation of the subtitle of this work. A Scientific America is not close-hewn with the America of the timeline in which I live and work. Rather than the back-and-forth flow from party to party which has defined much of American politics in the last 50 years, I've taken a different tack. In Ocean of Storms, the nation's mood swings tend to be slower and more pronounced. The era which began with JFK extended until the 1980's, at which point the pendulum swung in the other direction.

In response to two decades of Democratic presidents, the Republican Party, rather than forming around its right flank, chose to attack the center and embrace a more open and accepting social platform.

The truncated presidency of Ronald Reagan led to a backlash against President Bush. Bush came to be seen as something of a benevolent usurper, which caused him not to seek a full-term. This in turn, led to the rise of McCain and Powell, two Americans who have always struck me as supremely honorable, no matter which timeline they call home.

While I make a point not to plan too far ahead in political details, suffice it to say that our current reality seems devoid of Republicans with this level of principle, so I think a swing in a different political direction is in the offing, (just in the Ocean of Storms timeline).

The public will demand public arrests, raids, trials, and so forth. All this done in secret, makes people think nothing is going on.

I had hinted at this reaction with one of my headlines. I think the logical extension here is both clear and accurate.

For one, we have no idea how often programs like this leak because we have an incomplete data set. We have no idea what the denominator even is…

Secondly, I personally doubt the degree of controversy this would stir up if it leaks in 20-30 years, during which time period it worked. Folks looking back at this in TTL’s present day would, IMO, simply take the “eggs, omelets, breaking” attitude as we so often do when events are at a recent remove of time.
I think this is a very interesting line of thought. I'm reminded of a quote from Mindhunter (an exceptional show from Netflix) which has resonated with me ever since I first heard it.

Edmund Kemper: "It seems to me everything you know about serial killers has been gleaned from the ones who've been caught."

(As a side note, the book for Mindhunter also gave me the story of the Soviet serial killer which was recounted to President Powell. That has not been embellished here from how I received it and I would be remiss if I did not fully credit John Douglas for that anecdote.)
It's fascinating to ponder the ramifications of that. The point is well said in that we simply cannot know if programs like this can be kept secret because we only have evidence in one direction.

My working concepts for this were based on Mossad assassinations that have long been a part of Israel's defense. I make no judgment on the nature of those killings. I simply use them here as a lens and a mirror to consider what they might look like in America. Over the coming weeks, I plan to educate myself a bit more about Mossad and Israel's use of covert assassination. All I really know is the film Munich and the book Vengeance upon which it is based. I plan to read Rise and Kill First to see if there's some insights that I can glean. Maybe it'll be useful, but I'm sure it will at least be informative.

The recent violence gave me pause when writing this chapter. While I have no wish to open that can of worms, it disturbs me how often I have to take time when writing a chapter to consider the way a reader will see it in light of current events. So often my hope for Ocean of Storms is that its art is imitated by life, but that does not extend to the chapters which involve violence and terrorism.

I love that this chapter has generated lively discussion. Please keep that going, and, as always, thank you for reading!
 
Honestly, the shitshow people predicted here would probably be as lively as Guantanamo prison, but maybe even less. Which meant no something like impeachment or huge scandal. 9/11 brought down WTC and crashed into Pentagon and Bush wasn't in serious danger of impeached over his response including the Iraqi War and War of Terror. Here, they literally destroyed the US Capitol among with other buildings in previous attacks. Not to mention the death of various congressmen. Not to mention the dirty bomb plan in Times Square. Honestly, I feel this is a big rally over the flag moment for Powell. No other faction other than freaking British-Canada managed to sack or destroy any part of the capital of USA.
 
Honestly, the shitshow people predicted here would probably be as lively as Guantanamo prison, but maybe even less. Which meant no something like impeachment or huge scandal. 9/11 brought down WTC and crashed into Pentagon and Bush wasn't in serious danger of impeached over his response including the Iraqi War and War of Terror. Here, they literally destroyed the US Capitol among with other buildings in previous attacks. Not to mention the death of various congressmen. Not to mention the dirty bomb plan in Times Square. Honestly, I feel this is a big rally over the flag moment for Powell. No other faction other than freaking British-Canada managed to sack or destroy any part of the capital of USA.
To say nothing about the fact the last President tried his methods and didn't work.

Honestly, people are overestimating how much support they'll get if it gets out 'oh yeah, the financiers and planners are being illegally assassinated'. There's a safe bet a lot of people are gonna go 'good riddance to bad rubbish', and call it a day.
 
Honestly, people are overestimating how much support they'll get if it gets out 'oh yeah, the financiers and planners are being illegally assassinated'. There's a safe bet a lot of people are gonna go 'good riddance to bad rubbish', and call it a day.
Yeah, also forgot to mention the 200-s people killed randomly in the Black Summer Shootings. Honestly, I won't be surprised if there's some vigilante actions either by officials or normal citizens, pitchfork moments, or literally any social complete assassination of anyone found to be connected or with similar ideology with those bastards.
 
Top