Do not worry. It is pretty complicated understanding when and why some titles were used as house names and others were not (and I made a mistake earlier as John II of Aragon’s children by his first wife were male line descendants of Ferdinand I of Aragon but they used prevalently if not exclusively the “of Navarre“ denomination)
Maid of Norway, Queen of Scotland: A Plantagenet Britain Timeline
- Thread starter pandizzy
- Start date
John Fredrick Parker
Donor
I do wonder, at least prior to Edward II’s ascension, how much of the trouble Piers Galveston got into was due to the wider conflict between the prince and the king, and his “siding” with the former?
Great chapter and cool timeline! One question though: how will the economy of England change because of all of these intriguing events?
With the union with scotland i think it will be much better.
We shall see. They certainly won't have a war with Scotland to drain their money.
Exactly! But let's also hope that they don't get into expensive wars with france after this one.
You know as well as I do that this could not happen. Treaties with France generally doesn’t worth the ink on the paper as long as the French thought they were strong enough to repudiate it. To them, the sword is mightier than the pen. Perfidious Gaul must be destroyed!
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Ah okay.
England could focus on developing its own textile industry, which historically (I think) allowed England to develop.
Could this in long term mean earlier industrial revolution. Yes, we hardly are see that since TL probably is finished long time before that but could it still theoretically happen earlier if Britain would remain more stable?
Their mother doesn't have a title in her own right.....If we are to use contemporary examples, the kids of the Queens, including the children of the late Queen Elizabeth were all titled prince/ss of the United Kingdom before they got their own earldoms/duchies/principalities. Nobody called them 'of Edinburgh' etc after their mother took the throne. As @isabella noted, it was very much the birthplace, House of the father or the highest title of either of your parents. Nevertheless, I don't think there's any fixed rule. Sometimes it's a matter of use what you think it's cool. Apart from the Navarrese example, nobody called the Portuguese Queen Regnants' kids anything else other than 'of Portugal'.
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Yes, but Queen Elizabeth II's children were born on the 20th century, around 800 years after our events and the development of women's rights was greatly advanced. So the example is not really the same. That's why I'm only thinking of children born up to the 1500s since, as mothers, they had overall less rights when it came to the name their children carried.
Also in Portugal, children have, by law, their mother's last name. For example Catherine of Aragon's sisters who became Queens of Portugal are referred to as Isabel de Castela e Aragão and Maria de Castela e Aragão. Also the mothers name comes first, which is why the queens of portugal had their children referred to as of Portugal. Also can I just say that Queen Maria Is children were with her paternal uncle, who was the son of a king of portugal, meaning his children were also entitled to the honorific of as of Portugal.
This tradition of a mothers name comes to Brazil too. For example my name is Beatriz MothersName Mothersname Fathersname (i have two maternal last names because my mothers family is known by the two together)
Well John II of Aragon claimed the title King of Navarre after his wife died and held it for such a long time.
And if I remember correctly... Prince Philip was pissed off that his children carried their mother's name instead of his own.
Chapter XXXII - The Glory of Personhood
March 1295. Edinburgh Castle, Scotland.
Margaret held her breath as she attempted to thread her embroidery needle, focusing until her eyes crossed. She managed it in the third try, pulling the red thread through the small hole, and breathed again, relaxing her entire body. She began her sewing with care, as Lady Egidia had complained about loose stitches just the past week and ordered more hours dedicated to needlework.
There were only so many womanly arts she could learn amidst all the history, geography and laws though. And Margaret couldn’t exactly understand what was the point of learning how to make a dress when she had plenty of seamstresses do it for her. But Egidia insisted and the little queen wasn’t even close to the age where she’d be able to determine how to spend her days.
Elsbeth stood up and left the room, perhaps to relieve herself and Margaret twisted her mouth. Mary Bruce was receiving help from her sister Christina, and the other women sewed in silence, her rooms filled with people now that she had returned to Scotland. Every minor noble family adored the chance to send their daughters and sisters to her now that they, and she, were slightly older, taking advantage of the fact that Margaret had dismissed her English attendants before her return.
“Well done, Your Grace,” Egidia Stewart said next to her. Her governess had brought her own daughter to attend to her charge, another Egidia. Since their name meant small goat in Greek, Margaret had begun to call the daughter Geit, after the word for goats in Norwegian, and the nickname caught on quickly. Perhaps, because she was the Queen and all the other girls wanted to imitate her. Not like Egidia the Younger minded so much, probably because she didn’t know the origin of the word, as Margaret decided not to tell her. “Your stitching has improved greatly over the past few weeks.”
“Thank you, my lady,” Margaret answered with a tight smile.
The door opened behind them and a servant stepped inside, carrying in his hands a silver platter filled with piles and piles of unopened letters. Lady Egidia stood up with a sigh and walked to the servant, exclaiming as she did so, “Oh, the mail! At long last.” She took the letters in her hand and began to walk about the room, handing them to each receiver. “For Her Grace, the Queen. For Mary Bruce, be careful you don’t cut your fingers again, my lady. For Christina Comyn. Oh, heavens,” the governess looked around herself, confused even as she spoke, “Where is the Countess of Carrick?” She meant Elsbeth.
“I believe she is relieving herself, my lady,” Christina Comyn answered and Lady Egidia sighed. “I’m certain she will return soon enough.”
“I’ll go find her and see what is taking so long,” Lady Egidia murmured. She stepped out of the room and Margaret frowned at the sight of the seal that had closed the folded paper in her hands. It was her father’s seal. She opened her letter eagerly.
My beloved Margrete,
Words cannot convey how much I miss you, my child. I’ve heard that you returned to Scotland, which is why I’m sending this letter there, now that war has broken out between England and France. I hope you will keep yourself safe and out of trouble; it’s not fit for girls to wage war. And even less fit for children to follow the path of violence.
I have happier news than talk of war, though. Your new mother, Queen Isabel, is with child. Before the end of the year, you’ll have a little brother sleeping in the cradle. Isn’t that wonderful? I hope I receive word of your reaction soon. Oh, how I miss you, my sweet girl. Do you remember how we used to play?
Sending you away was the hardest thing I have ever done. When you were four, and I was chasing you around the Bishop’s castle just to make you laugh, I knew you’d be a great ruling queen. Your grandfather was dead by then already, but I couldn’t lose my only child. I hope one day, I can forgive myself.
By the hand of your loving father,
Eirik Magnusson.
Margaret sighed. Oh, papa. She missed him greatly as well. He was always so kind and loving to her.
She could not say she was unhappy at the prospect of a younger brother, even if he’d take away her place as their father’s heir, but Margaret was upset at the knowledge that she would never meet him, or any other sibling Queen Isabel gave their father in the following years. It was disheartening, to be sure.
Édouard had many siblings. Sisters, mostly, though there was one brother. Queen Eleanor of Aragon. Lady Joan, the Countess of Gloucester. Margaret, the Duchess of Brabant. Mary, a nun. Elizabeth, who’d soon wed the Count of Holland as soon as both came of age. And then the babies, Constance of Windsor and Henry, who would become Earl of Kent if he lived through infancy. Her betrothed was very lucky in the aspect of siblings and Margaret couldn’t help but feel jealous of him, now that she was to have a baby brother.
A servant came inside to whisper in Christina Comyn’s ear and Margaret saw the way her lady blanched and stood up, her brown eyes turning to the little queen. “Forgive me, Your Grace, but I must assist Lady Stewart with something,” she said, leaving with a quick curtsy and without looking back.
Margaret looked at Mary Bruce and Geit, who were both confused as well. “What has happened?” she asked.
“I heard the servant say two words,” Mary admitted. “But I don’t understand them.”
“Well, what did he say?” The other women in the rooms were looking at them, so Margaret leaned in to speak, mindful of her tone.
Mary twisted her mouth. “I heard the word flowering and Elsbeth’s name,” she said. “But I don’t see what those two words have in common.”
“I don’t understand it either,” Margaret admitted as Geit raised her shoulders in confusion.
But Elsbeth had left to go to privy and Lady Stewart went after her some minutes later. Perhaps, her lady was ill and had asked after their governess. Christina, as she was married to Elsbeth’s brother, could be a comfort to her, since they were sisters in the eyes of God. But Margaret couldn’t be entirely sure.
She supposed she would find out eventually what was happening.
June 1295. Mortagne, France.
They had been travelling for days before arriving at the city, which was conquered easily from its French governors. Mortagne stood at the border between lands loyal to King Philip and those that were under the command of Count Guy and had been constructed at the confluence of the Scheldt and the Scarpe rivers, and the castle of Helkijn. It might be relatively small, especially when compared to Paris and Bruges, but it was important. It could be used as a starting point for a conquest of France’s north.
Robert Bruce had been placed under the command of the Count’s eldest son, another Robert. They had not met open battle yet, but the morale was high and they moved quickly enough to avoid consuming the supplies of the land past beyond what was necessary. With seven hundred Englishmen, and another two thousand supplied by the Count of Flanders, they could prevail upon their campaign.
As a high-ranking nobleman, Robert was allowed into the war councils led by Robert of Bethune and other Flemish. They were together then, standing all around a long table with an open map of the French countryside, trying to decide where to go now.
“I hear King Philip is gathering his men in Compiègne,” Robert Bruce said. “We ought to go there and finish them before they can become a threat to our campaign.”
Bethune relaxed his jaw, considering. “Compiègne is eighty miles away,” he murmured. “It would take us five days to travel there, if I’m not mistaken, but we can’t be entirely sure that your information is correct, Lord Carrick. And it’s quite risky to chase another army, with no knowledge as to their numbers.”
They continued to discuss the idea, and though Bethune considered it fully, they didn’t manage to quite reach an accord on it before night fell. Robert left with a sour state in his mouth, disappointed that they hadn’t agreed with what he said. He had come to France with the hope of proving himself on the field, but all the other men thought of him as a child first, and a man second.
He supposed such was the way. They had skirmishes, but no battle. So he could only wait for the chance to gain glory. It was to come, he was sure.
Robert had been sleeping at an inn by the walls of Mortagne, as most of the Flemish nobles had taken the best houses for themselves. Though he didn’t entirely mind the offence, as the innkeeper had a pretty daughter with wide blue eyes and a pretty smile, always topping his goblet with wine, even without him asking. He was sure he would have a chance with her before the end of the stay.
He was almost at the inn when a horn echoed around the city, shaking the ground. Robert looked around in confusion as every man in their army started to run about in search of their weapons, chaos quickly descending into the city. He stood in the middle of the stone street, confused until a soldier he recognized ran past him, cheeks flushed.
Robert grabbed his arm. “What has happened, Louis?” he asked. “What is going on?”
“The French army is here!” the man shouted. “They have crossed the river. They are at our gates. We must remake our formations and drive them back.”
But it was the night and they were taken by surprise. Robert looked in the direction where every soldier was running towards, where the weak moonlight could not illuminate. The enemy was shrouded in shadows.
He was not wearing armour, and it would take too long to put it on. But this was what he wanted. He wanted glory and glory had come knocking. He only had to be brave enough to face it.
Of XYZ is not a last name.Charles III when he was born was Prince Charles of Edinburgh. When his mother got the throne, he’s Prince Charles of the UK before he got bumped up to Wales and eventually king. Queen Vic’s children were a similar story instead of being of Saxony etc except her second son who actually ended up inheriting Saxony from his uncle.
And yet, a lot of the Wales folks were using Prince William and his kids as examples. It’s only fair to use his own father, uncles and aunts as well.
If we are going by the principle that Margaret’s kids can’t call themselves of England because their father ain’t king yet, the principle should apply to Queen Maria’s kids as well even if her husband was her own uncle, given he was Duke of Beja.Queen Maria II’s kids were also likewise called ‘Of Portugal’ as well even though her husband were from the same paternal dynasty as Queen Vic’s kids.It could be like you said a Portuguese custom though. That said, why weren’t they called of Portugal and Saxony then? I think there’s an element of you use the highest titles, and if both parents have really high titles, you use both.Furthermore, one reason I really doubt that Margaret’s kids would be called Wales is because as Queen she would just dump titles on her kids, in which case they could be called of Albany, Rothesay, etc the day they are born. She gets to decided what they are titled, unless Edward I himself dumps a bunch of titles first.
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Well, beginning with Saxony... It's isn't Saxony itself, it's Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, which is a branch of the Saxon ruling family. Second, I just went to search the children of Queen Maria II to see if in the Portuguese wikipedia, they are referred to as of Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, but they actually don't seem to even be a part of the Saxon dynasty. All of them seem to belong to House of Braganza (https://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedro_V_de_Portugal). This idea of a mother's family name being inherited by a royal child is quite a recent invention and I think the first to do so was actually Maria Theresa in the 1700s with her children.
Also in the 1200s, it very much is a last name the Of XYZ. Why do you think so many people don't know for example that Catherine of Aragon's actual last name was Trastamara (I'm not talking about the nerds in this site) or that Anne of Cleves' name is La Marck.
Also I think FalconHonour was using the example that royalty uses their father's title as a last name (the of Cambridge, of Wales, of Cornwall), since George was known in his primary school as George Cambridge and Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands was known as Trixie Orange when she studied as a child in Canada. Beyond that, it is also to show that they can indeed change (why Louis, Charlotte and George changed appelations three times in one day) and it isn't set in stone just because they were born when their father was Duke of Cambridge. So I shouldn't feel restricted to the term 'of Wales' just because that's what they were using when they were born. Philippa of Lancaster, for example, daughter of Henry IV, can also be referred to as Philippa of England after her dad became king.
So Falcon (who was the only one mentioning the prince of wales' children aka not a lot of folks) wasn't telling me to follow the example of Prince William. She was just mentioning the fact that royalty does it and that it can change to fit the most recent situation, ergo the examples are still invalid.
Also, also, in my conversation with VV, he very much said they would probably use the term of England or wherever they happen to be born. I just said otherwise, because I actually prefer the term of Wales and he isn't here to defend himself rip
Good luck to Margaret’s unborn sibling. Otl her half-sister was only born in 1297, so I’m sensing a brother here! I hope they get to meet some day. Britain isn’t impossibly far from Norway really
Also, lowkey hoping that Bobby B snuffs it here
Also, lowkey hoping that Bobby B snuffs it here
I didn't read this part. First, Rothesay is a Stewart invention, because Rothesay is part of their lands, so Margaret would need a different title for her own heir. Second, that's a duke's titles. A title doesn't erase your names. Sort of like how Édouard is Prince of Wales, but he is also Edward of England. Or William being still considered a Prince of the UK, since his dad is the king. That's a title, not an appelation. They would still have the appelation 'of Wales/of England' added on to their own titles.
For example, William IV of the UK was Duke of Clarence, but he was William Henry of Great Britain and Ireland when he was born because you don't get titles the minute you leave your mother's womb . They want to see if you will live first.. And William's children, all of whom are illegitimate, were known as Fitzclarence for example rather than Fitzroy because they weren't the children of the king (which is what fitzroy means) but the children of the duke of clarence. Edouard, if he has any children now, they will be referred to as Fitzwales rather than anything else.
And the girls won't get titles of their own, so they still need an appelation. Margaret and Edouard's daughters won't be duchesses of albany, cambridge, ross, or whatever, even if they have no younger brothers.
Charlotte of Wales is known as Princess Charlotte of Wales because her dad wasn't king of england yet while she lived and she was already born in a time where a monarch's grandchildren in the male-line are treated as Princes and Princesses of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, which is not the same situation in our time. See the daughter of Prince Leopold, Queen Victoria's fourth son. Legally, she was a princess of the uk, but she was called by her father's titles. Queen Victoria's children and Queen Elizabeth's children were also born in a time where the law was that the monarch's children and grandchildren and great-grandchildren were princes and princess of the uk (in the male-line for grandchildren and below) so that's why they changed their name.
Edward's children don't have the same idea. There is no legal precendence for a child of a monarch of Scotland who is also a male-line grandchild of the King of England. NONE. So I get to invent it. And I'm going through the contemporary (of the 1200s) image that it was the father's name. Why aren't Queen Jeanne's children referred to as 'of France and Navarre'? Because that's their dad's title.
It's very rare that a regnant queen doesn't marry a king. As in, at the time that they are wed, he is already a king. The only image I have is Ferdinand and the children they had before his dad died were referred to as 'of Aragon' which Isabella pointed out is a common practice in his family rather than the title 'of Sicily' since that's his own title.
I am aware that they probably should be referred to by "of England" rather than "of Wales", but I'm also writing a story where a lot of characters have the same name, so anyway I can get to differentiate them, I'm taking it. Or do you really think Édouard's daughters won't have the same names as his sisters?
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