List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage II

[Kellan Sullivan]

An oft-neglected counterweight to the Maria Theresia marries Carlos III WI (and yes, I figured François Étienne emulates both the duke of Württemberg and Karl of Zweibrücken where they were refused a match with an archduchess and goes completely anti-Austrian cold turkey):

Also, given a continued Franco-English/Austro-Spanish Alliance, this schema might (keyword might) come to fruition

François III Étienne, Duke of Lorraine (1708-1778) m: 1734 Eleonore Philippine of Hesse-Rheinfels-Rothenburg[1] (1712-1759)

Élisabeth Charlotte (b.1735) m: 1750 Karl II Eugen, Duke of Württemberg (1728-1793)​

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Charles Philippe (1738-1743)​

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Léopold II Érnest, Duke of Lorraine (1740-1802) m: 1755 Maria Elisabeth of Saxony[2] (b.1736)​

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Éléonore Christine (1741-1781) m: 1760 Ludwig VII Franz Joseph, Elector Palatine of the Rhine[3] (b.1743)​

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François Édouard (1743-1745)​

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Anne Françoise (1744-1799) m: 1758 Ferdinand Ludwig, Prince von Thurn und Taxis[4] (b.1747)​

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Jacques Stanislas, Archbishop of Cologne [from 1784], Archbishop of Liège [from 1771] (b.1747)​

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Louise Dorothée (b.1749)​

Charles Alexandre, Duke of Teschen[5] (1712-1772) m: 1742 Elisabeth of Baden-Baden[6] (b.1726)

Maria Anna Regina (1744-1779) m: 1762 August Joseph, Count Rutowsky[7] (1741-1784)​

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Elisabeth Franziska (b.1747) m: 1768 Karl II, Duke of Mecklenburg-Strelitz[8] (b.1741)​

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Karl Albrecht, Duke of Teschen (b.1749) m: 1768 Friederike of Hesse-Darmstadt (b.1752)​

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Leopold Damian, Duke of Krumau, Landgrave of Klettgau (b.1751) m: 1769 Gabriella of Savoie-Carignan[9] (b.1748)​

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[1] People often overlook how few Catholic princesses would be available for François Étienne had he not married Maria Theresia. Eleonore is the stepmother to Karl Theodor, Elector Palatine; sister to the princesse de Condé, the princesse de Carignan and the duchess of Savoy. She provides a French tie without suffering the indignity of being French, as well as gives François a level of influence in the Reichstag (as “stepfather” to the Elector Palatine). Also, her stepson's inheritance in the Austrian Netherlands (the marquisate of Bergen-op-Zoom and other) would provide a "useful" avenue for the house of Lorraine to extend their influence that way
[2] Daughter of the king of Poland and an Austrian archduchess, sister to the queen of Spain (either a second wife of Fernando VI or his son by Barbara of Portugal (b.1733) and the dauphine of France
[3] Son of Karl Theodor, Elector Palatine of the Rhine, and Elisabeth Auguste of Sulzbach
[4] Son of Alexander Ferdinand, Prince von Thurn und Taxis, and his second wife, Charlotte de Lorraine-Lambesc. Figure François Étienne was willing to waste his daughter to Savoie to "consolidate" Lorraine ties, the postmaster-general of the empire is definitely a step up from Chablais' complete "nothingness"
[5] Another reason why Charles Alexander was pissed at his brother’s renunciation. It not only deprived him of Lorraine but also Teschen. Since per the original agreement between Maria Theresia and Léopold Clément was that Teschen was to fall to François and Charles would follow his uncle into the church as archbishop of Trier
[6] Why does a second son get such a prestigious match? Per the terms of her parents’ marriage contract, Elisabeth is heiress to her mother’s lands. Her mother, Maria Anna von Schwarzenberg- per the inheritance agreement reached with Joseph I- is the heiress to all the Schwarzenberg lands should her only brother die without issue (which he does). Also, Elisabeth is heiress to her paternal grandmother’s Saxe-Lauenburg possessions (the duchy of Reichstadt) in Bohemia
[7] Grandson of August the Strong and Prince Lubomirski. It’s a love match after the pair meet at the wedding of their respective cousins. Sadly, it doesn’t remain so. Notably when Maria Anna finds out that a grandson of August the Strong is not exactly the wood from which faithful husbands are carved. The heiress of her grandmother and great-grandmother, the duchesse d’Orléans, in terms of biting commentary, she had a sufficiently punishing response when she packed her bags, took their children and went to go live with her father. Her husband responded by cutting off her allowance. It was only after her father died that her brother managed to negotiate a settlement
[8] Given that Mecklenburg and the Darmstadts would both be in Habsburg service around the same time as the duke of Teschen, it doesn’t seem impossible that a marriage between them would take place
[9] Daughter of Eleonore Philippine’s sister, the Princesse de Carignan. Her sister is the princesse de Lamballe and her brother married a princess of Lorraine-Lambesc

@Nuraghe @isabella @DrakeRlugia @Vitruvius @Archduke @noturaveragejoe0316 @The_Most_Happy

 

[Vitruvius]

An oft-neglected counterweight to the Maria Theresia marries Carlos III WI (and yes, I figured François Étienne emulates both the duke of Württemberg and Karl of Zweibrücken where they were refused a match with an archduchess and goes completely anti-Austrian cold turkey):

Well, I'm on the record as being very skeptical of a continued Austro-Spanish alliance but if we assume that does occur then this is fairly reasonable. The marriages in the next generation probably depend upon the outcome of alt Polish Succession and alt Austrian Succession wars. But I do think the Stanhope plan you mentioned elsewhere could come to fruition. Not to go too far off on a tangent but if Spain and Austria remain close then Austria may hold its own in Italy. But England wouldn't really want France to move in the direction of the Netherlands, even if they're allies. So perhaps there could be a complicated exchange that sees France gain Lorraine and the Duke of Lorraine be given the Austrian Netherlands. Though I wonder if Lorraine would be forced to give up Teschen in that scenario.

 

[kasumigenx]

Henry II d. 1213[1] m. Eleanor of Aquitaine d. 1180[1](a) Alys of France(b)
1a. William b. 1153 d. 1156
2a. Henry the Young King b. 1155 d. 1183 m. Margaret of France
3a. Matilda b. 1156 m. Henry the Lion(a) - with issue
4a. Richard I of Aquitaine b. 1157 d. 1199 m. Berengaria of Navarre(a)
4a1a. Eleanor II of Aquitaine b. 1193 m. Pierre de Dreux
4a2a. Matilda of Aquitaine b. 1199 m. Ferdinand II of Castile
5a. Geoffrey II of Brittany m. Constance of Brittany
5a1a. Eleanor of Brittany b. 1184 m. Louis VIII
5a2a. Matilda of Brittany b. 1185 m. Eudes III of Burgundy
5a3a. Marie of Brittany b. 1187 m. Llywelyn the Great
6a. Eleanor b. 1162 m. Alfonso VIII of Castile - with issue
7a. Joan b. 1164 m. William II of Sicily(a) Raymond VI of Toulouse(b) - with issue with second husband
8a. John, Count of Gloucester b. 1165 d. 1200 m. Isabella, Countess of Gloucester - no issue
9b. Philip I of England b. 1183 m. Maria of Brabant
10b. Margaret b. 1190 m. Frederick I of Sicily
11b. Fulk b. 1193 m. Matilda of Boulogne

Henry II of England and Eleanor of Aquitaine switched life spans.

 

[kasumigenx]

Blanche I of Navarre b. 1387 d. 1441 m. Martin I of Sicily(a) John II of Aragon(b)
1a. Maria II of Sicily b. 1406 m. Alfonso V of Aragon
1a1a. Constance III of Sicily b. 1425 m. John II of Castile(a)
1a1a1a. Isabella I of Sicily b. 1451 m. Ferdinand II of Aragon[2]
1a1a2a. Alfonso b. 1453 d. 1468
1a2a. Maria of Sicily b. 1430 m. Wladyslaw III of Poland[2] - with issue
2b. Charles (IV) of Navarre b. 1421 d. 1461 m. Agnes of Cleves(a)
3b. Blanche of Navarre b. 1424 m. Henry IV of Castile
4b. Eleanor of Navarre b. 1426 m. Gaston IV of Foix

1. OTL Ferdinand of Aragon.
2. 2nd wife after Elizabeth of Luxembourg who provides him of heirs.

 

[Nova_Philomena]

Prompt: Elizabeth I of England marries Robert Dudley.

Elizabeth I of England (b. 1532 d. 1603) m. Robert Dudley (b. 1532 d. 1588)

1. Anne of England (b. 1560 d. 1605) m. Henry IV of France (b. 1553 d. 1610)
2. Henry IX of England (b. 1562 d. 1621) [1] m. Elizabeth of Denmark (b. 1573 d. 1625)
3. Robert Tudor, Duke of York (b. 1563 d. 1592) [2] m. Claude de Lorraine (b. 1575 d. 1616) [3]
4. Elizabeth of England (b. 1565 d. 1614) m. James VI of Scotland (b. 1566 d. 1625) [4]
5. Joan of England (b. 1566 d. 1570) [5]
6. John Tudor, Duke of Richmond (b. 1567 d. 1622) m. Lady Frances Walsingham (b. 1567 d. 1633) [6]
7. Eleanor of England (b. 1569 d. 1647) [7] m. Frederick IV, Elector Palatine (b. 1574 d. 1610)

[1] Contrary to belief, I don't think Elizabeth hated her father nor did he hate her, and I think Elizabeth definitely would name her first son after her father. Elizabeth was not old enough to see her mother's downfall nor understand the implications of it (Unlike Mary) and I don't think she'd have huge trouble naming her son Henry.
[2] I think Elizabeth would've insisted on keeping the House Name of Tudor. The Tudors are more prestigious than the Dudley's and I think she'd easily get parliament on her side (Not that Robert Dudley was even the most popular of men of his time)
[3] Youngest of Charles III, Duke of Lorraine and Claude of Valois survives, I was gonna go with one of the older daughters, but I think only the youngest would be allowed to marry a second son.
[4] Mary Stuart is still forced to abdicate due to her unpopularity, and James is still brought up as Protestant and betrothed to Princess Elizabeth from a young age. Mary however is not executed because she has no reason to press her claim on the English Throne or send assassins after Elizabeth, and lives well into the 1600's, and eventually is released by Henry IX and allowed to return to Scotland.
[5] The name seems odd, but it makes sense. Robert Dudley's mother was a woman named Jane, and I don't think Elizabeth would give her the daughter the same name as Jane Seymour regardless of relevance. So I used Robert's father's name (John) and used the female variant of it (Joan) as the daughters name.
[6] Elopement and Love Match. Elizabeth kicks her son out of court for a year before forgiving him. She isn't too angry as her son at least chose a daughter of one of her closest allies.
[7] Eleanor of England is named for Robert Dudley's grandmother, Eleanor West (Mother of Jane Guildford).

Also, I know it would be kind of easy to have Henry IX marry Isabel Clara Eugenia or Catalina Micaela to stop the armada, but in no way would Elizabeth every accept a Catholic Match for her eldest son. I am sure she could forgive a Catholic Princess of Lorraine for a second son, but never a Catholic Princess for her first one. Elizabeth quite liked Denmark (She even named Frederick II a Knight of the Garter) and I think Elisabeth of Denmark would work. She is from a wealthy Protestant nation and her mother was dubbed one of the Richest Women in Northern Europe.

 

[Dragonboy]

@Nova_Philomena ! Amazing work! Long live the Tudors!

Suggestion: Mary (daughter of Henry VIII and COA) is born a son named edward

 

[Nova_Philomena]

@Nova_Philomena ! Amazing work! Long live the Tudors!

Suggestion: Mary (daughter of Henry VIII and COA) is born a son named edward

Edward VI of England (b. 1516 d. 1559) m. Madeleine of Valois (b. 1520 d. 1537) [1] and Maria of Portugal (b. 1521 d. 1577)

1. Catherine of England (b. 1537 d. 1600) [2] m. João Manuel, Prince of Portugal (b. 1537 d. 1554) [3]
2. Henry IX of England (b. 1539 d. 1602) [4] m. Mary, Queen of Scots (b. 1542 d. 1605)
3. Mary of England (b. 1542 d. 1603) m. Francis II of France (b. 1544 d. 1587) [5]
4. Stillborn Daughter (b. 1543 d. 1543)
5. Eleanor of England (b. 1545 d. 1616) m. Carlos, Prince of Asturias (b. 1545 d. 1568) [6]
6. Edward Tudor, Duke of York (b. 1546 d. 1598) m. Lady Mary Grey (b. 1545 d. 1578)

[1] Proposed after the League of Cambrai, Catherine of Aragon detested the match so it was broken off numerous times until it wasn't. Unfortunately, due to her frail health, she died giving birth to a daughter named Catherine.
[2] Speaking of Catherine, Joanna of Austria is a stillbirth, and because she's the same age as John Manuel, she is immediately proposed as a bride. Francis I of France, Catherine's grandfather, is supportive of the match.
[3] He still dies but Catherine gives him a Sebastian and a Henrique.
[4] First child of Edward VI and Maria of Portugal. He goes on to marry Mary Stuart after Henry VIII negotiations for his grandson with Arran.
[5] Lives Longer.
[6] He still dies, but Eleanor of England gives him three children, Felipe III of Spain, Infanta Maria of Spain and Infanta Leonor of Spain.

 

[DrakeRlugia]

OTL Pauline and other Bonapartes proposed Filistine as replacement bride for Napoleon, but he was absolutely not interested. I can not see Lucien‘s daughter being involved in Napoleon’s matrimonial politics as they (or at least Filistine) OTL refuted to be married off. That is the reason for which the matches with Ferdinand VII and Ferdinand of Tuscany do not got ahead. Can I suggest to keep alive Julie Joséphine Bonaparte (Joseph and Julie’s eldest daughter) who was born in 1796 and marry her to Ferdinand VII?

It was not so much that she refused to be married off, but her big mouth. She was sent to Paris and to the Imperial court for the express purpose of being married off and used for Napoleon's matrimonial ambitions. I can't imagine that there was much interest on the side of the Spanish or Ferdinand of Tuscany to marry one of Napoleon's nieces, especially considering the "status" of Filistine as the daughter of an illiterate woman whose father was an innkeeper, not to mention Filistine was not even considered a French princess at this period of time. Not that Julie Clary's status was much better, but at least she was the daughter of a wealthy silk merchant and was queen at one point—though both of her surviving daughters of course married within the family. Considering the heights that some of Napoleon's Marshals rose to through him (Bernadotte, the son of a prosecutor becoming Crown Prince and later King of Sweden, with Julie's sister Désirée becoming Queen of Sweden) Joseph and Julie's daughter may be a better bet, especially given Joseph's better relationship with Napoleon.

These marriages were also suggested in the period of 1806-1808, when Napoleon's empire was still new and the Bonapartes were seen as parvenu usurpers. The only marriages of these period that were successful that I can think of is Eugene de Beauharnais marrying Augusta of Bavaria in 1806, while Jerome married Catharina of Württemberg in 1807—not exactly "prestigious" marriages, and likely bore out of need on the Bavarian and Württemberger side, not to mention both being "new" kingdoms (George III in England was so incensed at his son-in-law's acceptance of the title of King and becoming one of Napoleon's most devoted vassals that he refused to address his daughter as queen in their correspondence). In a situation like that, Bavaria and Württemberg in the period were little better than the "paper royal highnesses" that proliferated Germany following the Congress of Vienna. Pauline likewise was married to an Italian prince—noble but not royal, while Elisa was wed to her Corsican husband, and Caroline of course was wed to Murat. The Bonapartes had not yet bridged that gap into marrying into a major royal dynasty—their position in 1806-1808 vs. 1811-1812 was quite different. I can see why the Spanish Bourbons and the Tuscan Habsburgs might be hesitant about such a marriage, especially given the status of the bride offered: it would feel like an insult. A more cunning Ferdinand VII might certainly see the advantages in such a marriage, though I can accept that would require a massive change to his character.

IIRC, Filistine Charlotte also had a bad habit of writing letters to her father where she complained of the hypocrisy of the French court and the ugliness of her female relatives. She even criticized Napoleon, and these letters eventually fell into the hands of his secret police. Napoleon sent packing after that—this would've likely been anywhere from 1807-1809, since in 1810 she attempted to flee with her father and stepmother to the United States and they were captured by the British. They stayed in Malta and later Britain until 1814. Filistine's "irregular" status probably didn't help with arranging marriages for her, since I believe she wasn't even actually recognized as a French princess and dynast until the Hundred Days in 1815. It wasn't until after the Hundred Days that she married her OTL husband, a Roman Prince with connections to the old Napoleonic regime in Italy. Funnily enough despite Filistine's attacks upon her uncle's court and even himself, she was considered a "true Bonaparte" post-1815 and she remained loyal to his memory and she was also attached to her grandmother, Madame Mère.

An oft-neglected counterweight to the Maria Theresia marries Carlos III WI (and yes, I figured François Étienne emulates both the duke of Württemberg and Karl of Zweibrücken where they were refused a match with an archduchess and goes completely anti-Austrian cold turkey):

Also, given a continued Franco-English/Austro-Spanish Alliance, this schema might (keyword might) come to fruition

François III Étienne, Duke of Lorraine (1708-1778) m: 1734 Eleonore Philippine of Hesse-Rheinfels-Rothenburg[1] (1712-1759)

Élisabeth Charlotte (b.1735) m: 1750 Karl II Eugen, Duke of Württemberg (1728-1793)​

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Charles Philippe (1738-1743)​

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Léopold II Érnest, Duke of Lorraine (1740-1802) m: 1755 Maria Elisabeth of Saxony[2] (b.1736)​

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Éléonore Christine (1741-1781) m: 1760 Ludwig VII Franz Joseph, Elector Palatine of the Rhine[3] (b.1743)​

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François Édouard (1743-1745)​

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Anne Françoise (1744-1799) m: 1758 Ferdinand Ludwig, Prince von Thurn und Taxis[4] (b.1747)​

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Jacques Stanislas, Archbishop of Cologne [from 1784], Archbishop of Liège [from 1771] (b.1747)​

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Louise Dorothée (b.1749)​

Charles Alexandre, Duke of Teschen[5] (1712-1772) m: 1742 Elisabeth of Baden-Baden[6] (b.1726)

Maria Anna Regina (1744-1779) m: 1762 August Joseph, Count Rutowsky[7] (1741-1784)​

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Elisabeth Franziska (b.1747) m: 1768 Karl II, Duke of Mecklenburg-Strelitz[8] (b.1741)​

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Karl Albrecht, Duke of Teschen (b.1749) m: 1768 Friederike of Hesse-Darmstadt (b.1752)​

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Leopold Damian, Duke of Krumau, Landgrave of Klettgau (b.1751) m: 1769 Gabriella of Savoie-Carignan[9] (b.1748)​

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[1] People often overlook how few Catholic princesses would be available for François Étienne had he not married Maria Theresia. Eleonore is the stepmother to Karl Theodor, Elector Palatine; sister to the princesse de Condé, the princesse de Carignan and the duchess of Savoy. She provides a French tie without suffering the indignity of being French, as well as gives François a level of influence in the Reichstag (as “stepfather” to the Elector Palatine). Also, her stepson's inheritance in the Austrian Netherlands (the marquisate of Bergen-op-Zoom and other) would provide a "useful" avenue for the house of Lorraine to extend their influence that way
[2] Daughter of the king of Poland and an Austrian archduchess, sister to the queen of Spain (either a second wife of Fernando VI or his son by Barbara of Portugal (b.1733) and the dauphine of France
[3] Son of Karl Theodor, Elector Palatine of the Rhine, and Elisabeth Auguste of Sulzbach
[4] Son of Alexander Ferdinand, Prince von Thurn und Taxis, and his second wife, Charlotte de Lorraine-Lambesc. Figure François Étienne was willing to waste his daughter to Savoie to "consolidate" Lorraine ties, the postmaster-general of the empire is definitely a step up from Chablais' complete "nothingness"
[5] Another reason why Charles Alexander was pissed at his brother’s renunciation. It not only deprived him of Lorraine but also Teschen. Since per the original agreement between Maria Theresia and Léopold Clément was that Teschen was to fall to François and Charles would follow his uncle into the church as archbishop of Trier
[6] Why does a second son get such a prestigious match? Per the terms of her parents’ marriage contract, Elisabeth is heiress to her mother’s lands. Her mother, Maria Anna von Schwarzenberg- per the inheritance agreement reached with Joseph I- is the heiress to all the Schwarzenberg lands should her only brother die without issue (which he does). Also, Elisabeth is heiress to her paternal grandmother’s Saxe-Lauenburg possessions (the duchy of Reichstadt) in Bohemia
[7] Grandson of August the Strong and Prince Lubomirski. It’s a love match after the pair meet at the wedding of their respective cousins. Sadly, it doesn’t remain so. Notably when Maria Anna finds out that a grandson of August the Strong is not exactly the wood from which faithful husbands are carved. The heiress of her grandmother and great-grandmother, the duchesse d’Orléans, in terms of biting commentary, she had a sufficiently punishing response when she packed her bags, took their children and went to go live with her father. Her husband responded by cutting off her allowance. It was only after her father died that her brother managed to negotiate a settlement
[8] Given that Mecklenburg and the Darmstadts would both be in Habsburg service around the same time as the duke of Teschen, it doesn’t seem impossible that a marriage between them would take place
[9] Daughter of Eleonore Philippine’s sister, the Princesse de Carignan. Her sister is the princesse de Lamballe and her brother married a princess of Lorraine-Lambesc

@Nuraghe @isabella @DrakeRlugia @Vitruvius @Archduke @noturaveragejoe0316 @The_Most_Happy

Oh, this is super interesting!

I think that Eleonore is a very decent bride for François Étienne as well. You are correct that their options are rather limited outside the proposed OTL Austrian match—and a direct French match (such as with an Orléans cousin such as Philippine Élisabeth or Louise Diane—neither Condé nor Conti or the direct line have any such matches) risks increasing French influence over the Duchy. The only Orléans princess who married abroad was Charlotte Algaé and it wasn't until 1720, with her children being born in the mid-1720s. Too young for a potential match with François Étienne. It would likely have to be a German princess of some extraction—even some of the Princes du Sang in France were seeking out such matches in this same period due a dearth of appropriate matches (Prince of Condé marrying Eleonore's sister; Louis of Orléans marrying Auguste of Baden-Baden, ect).

Overall, seems like François Étienne's children do very well for themselves—Württemberg, Palatinate of the Rhine. Even Thurn and Taxis: they are still imperial princes with access to imperial council of princes, even if their principality was titular, they were extremely wealthy in the 18th century and would no doubt pay well for the privilege to marry a Princess of Lorraine. In the 1780s IOTL they were able to gain their own lands and principality within the empire, when they acquired the County of Friedburg in Upper Swabia, alongside the lordships of Scheer, Dürmentingen, and Bussen. Their main source of income remained the Reichspost, but no French Revolution / Collapse of the Holy Roman Empire may give them the chance to continue to expand their landed territories. IIRC they initially sided with Charles VII during the OTL War of the Austrian Succession. Charles VII even named Alexander Ferdinand as Principal Commissioner / Lord Chancellor of the Imperial Diet . IOTL their monopoly was untouched when Maria Theresa triumphed because they were indispensable. Charles VII and Bavaria triumph in the WoTAS, the Thurn and Taxis are well positioned to benefit from that. They moved from Brussels to Frankfurt in 1703, and then onward to Regensburg—though Frankfurt remained the headquarters of the Thurn and Taxis post, based out of their Palais in Frankfurt.

François Étienne's second son seems to do very well for himself too in his clerical career—from Liège to the Archbishopric of Cologne, giving the House of Lorraine a vote in the Electoral College... even if it's just for the lifetime of Jacques Stanislas (or I suppose Jakob Stanislaus in German). Again, assuming we see the Holy Roman Empire endure, the younger sons of the Dukes of Lorraine will likely be well placed to secure plump benefices and clerical appointments in the Southern Netherlands and in Germany—especially in the Rhineland and the "big 3" spiritual electorates of Cologne, Mainz, and Trier.

Seems like Charles Alexander's kids do well enough too: Maria Anna marries the grandson of this Frederick Augustus Rutowsky , I suppose? I like the idea of it not necessarily being a happy ending—like you said, expecting fidelity from the line of Augustus the Strong is probably an exercise in futility. Seems like Elisabeth Franziska gets a decent enough match as the daughter of a second son and hopefully a better marriage. Leopold Damian also seems to do very well for himself: so we get a branch of the House of Lorraine in Teschen, with Leopold Damian perhaps spawning another branch in Breisgau / Vorlande? The Schwarzenberg lands in Klettgau had intermediacy and princely status iirc. That could be quite interesting, especially if they're able to expand their territories further in that region... though I imagine the lands in Krumau in Bohemia might be extensive / more wealthy?

I know you spoke a bit in the previous thread about the possible outcome for Maria Theresa and Charles III not being good, at least compared to OTL. I believe you mentioned the possibility of them being reduced to Hungary—I think that is absolutely a possible outcome. Especially with the state Charles VI left the army and treasury, and Maria Theresa's lack of alliances and support abroad. I think that once Felipe V is dead in 1746 (or perhaps earlier) If you have either a surviving Felipe Pedro as King of Spain or Ferdinand VI, Spanish support for Maria Theresa's cause likely plummets: I do not expect Charles III's half-brothers to offer the same level of support that could be expected when Felipe V was alive and Elisabeth Farnese dominated the government. Add in possible alliance of the Franco-Prussian-Saxon axis, with a more French friendly Britain remaining either neutral or aloof, then it doesn't look good for the Habsburgs... their only possible ally would be Russia, which in ~1740 has it's own internal issues, with Anna's death, Ivan VI's succession, and the struggles over the young emperor's regency. Assuming Elizabeth is still breathing and butterflies don't lead her to an early demise, then she will likely still ascend the throne as IOTL. I know that she and her chief minister Bestuzhev were pro-Austrian, but their OTL aims were to join into an alliance with Austria and Britain and better relations with both courts. If Maria Theresa stands alone, it's hard to say. On one hand, Bestuzhev represented the Francophobe/Prussophobe faction at court; he judged France as Russia's enemy, because of their relationships with the Ottomans, Sweden, and Poland. On the other hand, Russia's economy began to stagnate and decline post-1740 after decades of moving closer and 'catching up' to the more developed economies in northern and western Europe, and Britain was a major trading partner especially where it concerned manufactured products. Elizabeth and Bestuzhev may judge that it is better to remain friendly with London and to leave Maria Theresa and Vienna (or I suppose Budapest...) to their fate.

The 1740s and 1750s would be quite interesting in this TL, and it's hard to say what sort of ramifications might follow: especially if France and their allies are successful in their aims against Maria Theresa and can succeed in dismembering the Habsburg Empire as it stood prior to 1740. That alone could have huge changes when it's over—Louis XV could very be looked upon as the victorious king who succeeded where his grandfather had failed against their Habsburg and Austrian rivals—especially if there are some sort of gains for France, even if they are financial rather than territorial (though perhaps there could be adjustments made along the French border with the Southern Netherlands, depending on who retains / gets them). The WoTAS in this situation will likely be resolved a lot sooner than 1748 as well, which would definitely help France's financial situation. Even if Louis XV suffers something similar to the events at Metz in 1744 (with being refused absolution, his confession of adultery being distributed publicly) that tarnished the prestige of the monarchy, a quick and successful war where France is on the victorious side would allow him to recoup his popularity. I can imagine the French being more benign about their sovereign's infidelities when he has prosecuted a war that will help France's domination of Europe continue.

 

[isabella]

It was not so much that she refused to be married off, but her big mouth. She was sent to Paris and to the Imperial court for the express purpose of being married off and used for Napoleon's matrimonial ambitions. I can't imagine that there was much interest on the side of the Spanish or Ferdinand of Tuscany to marry one of Napoleon's nieces, especially considering the "status" of Filistine as the daughter of an illiterate woman whose father was an innkeeper, not to mention Filistine was not even considered a French princess at this period of time. Not that Julie Clary's status was much better, but at least she was the daughter of a wealthy silk merchant and was queen at one point—though both of her surviving daughters of course married within the family. Considering the heights that some of Napoleon's Marshals rose to through him (Bernadotte, the son of a prosecutor becoming Crown Prince and later King of Sweden, with Julie's sister Désirée becoming Queen of Sweden) Joseph and Julie's daughter may be a better bet, especially given Joseph's better relationship with Napoleon.

These marriages were also suggested in the period of 1806-1808, when Napoleon's empire was still new and the Bonapartes were seen as parvenu usurpers. The only marriages of these period that were successful that I can think of is Eugene de Beauharnais marrying Augusta of Bavaria in 1806, while Jerome married Catharina of Württemberg in 1807—not exactly "prestigious" marriages, and likely bore out of need on the Bavarian and Württemberger side, not to mention both being "new" kingdoms (George III in England was so incensed at his son-in-law's acceptance of the title of King and becoming one of Napoleon's most devoted vassals that he refused to address his daughter as queen in their correspondence). In a situation like that, Bavaria and Württemberg in the period were little better than the "paper royal highnesses" that proliferated Germany following the Congress of Vienna. Pauline likewise was married to an Italian prince—noble but not royal, while Elisa was wed to her Corsican husband, and Caroline of course was wed to Murat. The Bonapartes had not yet bridged that gap into marrying into a major royal dynasty—their position in 1806-1808 vs. 1811-1812 was quite different. I can see why the Spanish Bourbons and the Tuscan Habsburgs might be hesitant about such a marriage, especially given the status of the bride offered: it would feel like an insult. A more cunning Ferdinand VII might certainly see the advantages in such a marriage, though I can accept that would require a massive change to his character.

IIRC, Filistine Charlotte also had a bad habit of writing letters to her father where she complained of the hypocrisy of the French court and the ugliness of her female relatives. She even criticized Napoleon, and these letters eventually fell into the hands of his secret police. Napoleon sent packing after that—this would've likely been anywhere from 1807-1809, since in 1810 she attempted to flee with her father and stepmother to the United States and they were captured by the British. They stayed in Malta and later Britain until 1814. Filistine's "irregular" status probably didn't help with arranging marriages for her, since I believe she wasn't even actually recognized as a French princess and dynast until the Hundred Days in 1815. It wasn't until after the Hundred Days that she married her OTL husband, a Roman Prince with connections to the old Napoleonic regime in Italy. Funnily enough despite Filistine's attacks upon her uncle's court and even himself, she was considered a "true Bonaparte" post-1815 and she remained loyal to his memory and she was also attached to her grandmother, Madame Mère.

I know that, but again the main reason for which Napoleon was unable to marry her off was the fact who both the girl and her father refuted to agree to the matches who Napoleon planned. If the proposed bride had been the daughter of Joseph the match with Ferdinand VII would go ahead without troubles as Spain also was interested in such match (Spain had offered the hand of infanta Isabella to Napoleon in 1801, before her wedding in Naples and would agree to a match between the Dowager Queen of Etruria and one of Napoleon’s brothers, but Louis was destined to Hortense and Lucien refuted the match, marrying Alexandrine)

 

[DrakeRlugia]

I know that, but again the main reason for which Napoleon was unable to marry her off was the fact who both the girl and her father refuted to agree to the matches who Napoleon planned. If the proposed bride had been the daughter of Joseph the match with Ferdinand VII would go ahead without troubles as Spain also was interested in such match (Spain had offered the hand of infanta Isabella to Napoleon in 1801, before her wedding in Naples and would agree to a match between the Dowager Queen of Etruria and one of Napoleon’s brothers, but Louis was destined to Hortense and Lucien refuted the match, marrying Alexandrine)

We know that Lucien had no interest in Napoleon's plans. He spurned the marriage with the Queen of Etrutia (though Napoleon would say in his own memoirs that he was the one who refused to let Lucien marry her, hence his marriage to Alexandrine, though this is likely Napoleon blustering as he did not like Alexandrine). Lucien went into exile in Rome, and presumably Filistine did as well, since it's said she was educated by nuns in Italy—from 1804 onwards. Given Lucien's ardent republicanism and refusal of imperial honors / opposition to Napoleon's imperial plans, it doesn't make much sense why he'd agree to send her to Paris and the Imperial Court when Napoleon made clear his intentions to use her as a marriage pawn: regardless of her thoughts on the matter. If she's in Paris and under the care of Madame Mère, her father's thoughts don't matter. If there had been any true need to marry Filistine off to benefit the Empire, it would have likely been done. I've not found anything to suggest her own opposition beyond her letters, which were in any case aimed more at the court and her female relatives / Napoleon. Most 19th century memoirs of the court don't even mention her.

Either way, regardless of who Ferdinand marries: it likely requires a personality transplant for Ferdinand VII, and likely Napoleon too. By 1808 France already had designs on Spain and troops occupied Navarre and parts of Catalonia. Charles IV's abdication was used as an excuse to get both Charles and Ferdinand to Bayonne so that they could be both be pressured into abdicating. We have the hindsight of knowing that the Peninsular War was an absolute waste of Napoleon's time and resources, but given his success up until that point, it's not any surprise that he chose to bring Spain closer under his domination.

 

[isabella]

We know that Lucien had no interest in Napoleon's plans. He spurned the marriage with the Queen of Etrutia (though Napoleon would say in his own memoirs that he was the one who refused to let Lucien marry her, hence his marriage to Alexandrine, though this is likely Napoleon blustering as he did not like Alexandrine). Lucien went into exile in Rome, and presumably Filistine did as well, since it's said she was educated by nuns in Italy—from 1804 onwards. Given Lucien's ardent republicanism and refusal of imperial honors / opposition to Napoleon's imperial plans, it doesn't make much sense why he'd agree to send her to Paris and the Imperial Court when Napoleon made clear his intentions to use her as a marriage pawn: regardless of her thoughts on the matter. If she's in Paris and under the care of Madame Mère, her father's thoughts don't matter. If there had been any true need to marry Filistine off to benefit the Empire, it would have likely been done. I've not found anything to suggest her own opposition beyond her letters, which were in any case aimed more at the court and her female relatives / Napoleon. Most 19th century memoirs of the court don't even mention her.

Either way, regardless of who Ferdinand marries: it likely requires a personality transplant for Ferdinand VII, and likely Napoleon too. By 1808 France already had designs on Spain and troops occupied Navarre and parts of Catalonia. Charles IV's abdication was used as an excuse to get both Charles and Ferdinand to Bayonne so that they could be both be pressured into abdicating. We have the hindsight of knowing that the Peninsular War was an absolute waste of Napoleon's time and resources, but given his success up until that point, it's not any surprise that he chose to bring Spain closer under his domination.

The talks about the match were already in 1807. With Julie as bride the wedding could not be fully celebrated before her 12th birthday in 1808 as she will need to be at least 12 but the agreement and a proxy celebration could happen earlier and would likely influence the situation in Spain. And it is likely who Napoleon do not pushed the match OTL as marry off Filistine, who was too rebellious and inadequate, would be likely counter productive…

 

[kasumigenx]

Theobald IV of Champagne b. 1201 m. Eleanor I of Navarre[1] b. 1200

1a. Blanche of Navarre b. 1223

2a. Theobald II of Navarre b. 1230

3a. Margaret of Navarre b. 1233

4a. Henry I of Navarre b. 1236

1.Posthumous daughter of Richard the Lionheart

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

An alternate end for Granada

Abu’l Hasan Ali ibn Saïd [Muley Hacén[1]], Emir of Granada [1464-1482; 1483-1485] (d.1485) 1m: 1455 Aïxa al-Hurra (-1483); 2m: 1474 Isabel de Solís [Zoraya] (1454-1510)

[1m.] Muhammed XII [Boabdil], Emir of Granada [1482-1483[2]] (1459-1483) m: 1482 Morayma bint Ibrahim (1467-1493)​

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Aïxa[3] (1482-1560) m: 1499 [4] Carlos, 2e Duque de Medinaceli (b.1472)​

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Miguel, 3e Duque de Medinaceli (1510-1575) m: 1524 Mencía de Mendoza y Fonseca[5] (1508-1554)​

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Carlos Miguel, 4e Duque de Medinaceli (1533-1588)​

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[1m.] Yusuf​

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[1m.] Aïxa () m:​

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[2m.] Abu’l Saïd II ibn Hasan [Fernando], Emir of Granada [1491-1527] (1470-1527) m: 1496 Gevhermelik Hatun[6]​

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Muhammed XIV Saïd [Rodrigo[7]], Emir of Granada [from 1527] (1498-1547)​

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Fatima [Richilde] (1500-1562) m: ?​

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Abdullah (1501-1522[8])​

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Zaynab [Isabel] (1504-1559) m: ?​

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[2m.] Nas’r [Juan] (1480-1543) m: ?​

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Magdalena (b.circa 1510) m: 1540 Luiz de Portugal-Lencastre, 1º comendador-mór de Avis (1505-1574)​

Muhammed XIII [El Zagal], Emir of Granada [1485-1491[9]] (1444-1491) m: Esquivila Al Nayara ()

---

[1] Muley Hacén was supported by Enrique IV in his bids against his father, Abu Nas’r Sa’d (even serving in the Castilian king’s Moorish Guard (disbanded in 1467), a sort of elite body-guard for the king). Which puts Isabel la Catolica’s war against Granada in a whole different light- since Fernando el Catolico supported Muley Hacén’s rival Ibrahim al-Nayyar (in the Tordesillas Treaty of 27 June 1474), by which Ibrahim al-Nayyar actually accepted Aragonese vassalage in exchange for support against Castile.
[2] Killed in the Battle of Málaga in 1483 (OTL he was captured). This will have profound effects on the OTL conquest of Granada. OTL, Boabdil’s release and return to reign in Granada was marked by differences between he and his uncle, El Zagal until the kingdom fell. One of which was the crucial surrender of Baza in 1489. The “governor” of Baza was one Cidi Yahya al Nayar, nephew of Ibrahim al Nayyar, grandson of Yusuf IV (on one side), and Abū’ l-Qāsim (Abulcasem) Venegas, on the other. Venegas was vizier to El Zagal (so Boabdil refused to go to Cidi Yahya’s aid), even when the odds seemed favourable. Cidi surrendered the city to Fernando el Catolico and agreed to convert to Christianity (becoming D. Pedro de Venegas). Cidi’s switch and Baza’s fall made the entire valley of Almenzora and mountains of Filabres surrender, followed by the fortresses of Almunecar and Salobrena. Cidi then persuaded his brother-in-law El Zagal to turn over the cities of Almeria and Guadix to Fernando
[3] Became known as Mariana on her baptism.
[4] Son of Ana de Navarra (bastard daughter of Carlos, Prince of Viana) and the 1e duque de Medinaceli
[5] OTL duchess of Calabria, countess of Nassau
[6] Daughter of Cem Sultan. As to how Cem Sultan winds up in Granada? When he flees after his defeat at his brother’s hands, he still winds up in Rhodes, then Rome (under Pope Alexander VI). When the Italian Wars start, Cem is sent to Spain (for safe-keeping) and winds up in Valencia with his daughters. Fernando el Catolico, ever the opportunist, decides to arrange a marriage between Cem’s elder daughter and the Emir of Granada.
Long story short: the rival claim to the Ottoman throne is now lodged “comfortably” in the Spanish nobility.
[7] In honour of the pope, Rodrigo Borgia
[8] Killed at the Siege of Rhodes
[9] Killed in the Battle of Málaga in 1491

@Salma Amer @Victoria @HortenseMancini @Nuraghe @isabella @Jan Olbracht @Historymaster

 

[Andrewtsal]

The entire Burgundy clan manages to avoid the measles outbreak that decimated it in otl.

• Louis XV, King of France and Navarre (b. 1682, d. 1740) m. Marie Adelaide of Savoy (b. 1685, d. 1749)
  • Louis XVI, King of France and Navarre (b. 1707, d. 1766) m. Barbra of Portugal, Infanta of Portugal (b. 1711, d. 1758)
    • Louis XVII, King of France and Navarre (b. 1731, d. 1797) m. Maria Antonia, Infanta of Spain (b. 1729, d. 1785)
    • Charles, Duke of Burgundy (b. 1733, d. 1778) m. Marie Philippine d’Anjou (b. 1733, d. 1791)
  • Louis, Duke of Anjou (b. 1710, d. 1774) m. Philippine Elisabeth of Orleans (b. 1714, d. 1774)
    • Marie Philippine d’Anjou (b. 1733, d. 1791) m. Charles, Duke of Burgundy (b. 1733, d. 1791)
    • Charlotte Elisabeth d’Anjou (b. 1734, d. 1801) m. Maximillian III, Elector of Bavaria (b. 1727, d. 1777)
    • Marie Adelaide d’Anjou (b. 1736, d. 1789) m. Louis Joseph, Prince of Conde (b. 1736, d. 1818)
  • Marie Louisa, Princess of France (b. 1713, d. 1777) m. Luis I, King of Spain (b. 1707, d. 1741)
    • Luis II, King of Spain (b. 1734, d. 1810) m. Maria Ana, Infanta of Portugal (b. 1736, d. 1804)
    • Francisco, King of Sicily (b. 1738, d. 1800) m. Maria Christina, Archduchess of Austria (b. 1742, d. 1798)

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Barbra of Portugal, Infanta of Portugal (b. 1711, d. 1758)

Except Babs was rejected by the French court OTL on grounds of suspected madness (her moods and potential hyper religiosity)

 

[Andrewtsal]

Except Babs was rejected by the French court OTL on grounds of suspected madness (her moods and potential hyper religiosity)

Different situation this time with the inheritance not being as up in the air, so the court is more willing to have her as Queen.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Suggestion: Mary (daughter of Henry VIII and COA) is born a son named edward

Edward VI of England (1516-1560) [1] m. a) Charlotte of France (1516-1534) [2], b) Isabella Jagiellon (1519-1559)

1a) Katherine I of England (1532-1592) m. Ferdinand II of Austria (1529-1595)
2a) Charlotte of England (1534-1593) m. Philip II of Spain (1527-1598)
3b) Elizabeth of England (1537-1602) m. Sigismund II Augustus (1520-1572)
4b) Mary of England (1539-1601) m. James VI of Scotland (1540-1605) [3]


[1] Obviously he can't have uterine cancer if he's a man, so he lives a bit longer.
[2] Her sister Louise married James V instead.
[3] Son of James V and Louise of France

 

[Dragonboy]

Edward VI of England (1516-1560) [1] m. a) Charlotte of France (1516-1534) [2], b) Isabella Jagiellon (1519-1559)

1a) Katherine I of England (1532-1592) m. Ferdinand II of Austria (1529-1595)
2a) Charlotte of England (1534-1593) m. Philip II of Spain (1527-1598)
3b) Elizabeth of England (1537-1602) m. Sigismund II Augustus (1520-1572)
4b) Mary of England (1539-1601) m. James VI of Scotland (1540-1605) [3]


[1] Obviously he can't have uterine cancer if he's a man, so he lives a bit longer.
[2] Her sister Louise married James V instead.
[3] Son of James V and Louise of France

Amazing work! Idea: William III and Mary II have a son.

 

[Salma Amer]

Edward VI of England (1516-1560) [1] m. a) Charlotte of France (1516-1534) [2], b) Isabella Jagiellon (1519-1559)

1a) Katherine I of England (1532-1592) m. Ferdinand II of Austria (1529-1595)
2a) Charlotte of England (1534-1593) m. Philip II of Spain (1527-1598)
3b) Elizabeth of England (1537-1602) m. Sigismund II Augustus (1520-1572)
4b) Mary of England (1539-1601) m. James VI of Scotland (1540-1605) [3]


[1] Obviously he can't have uterine cancer if he's a man, so he lives a bit longer.
[2] Her sister Louise married James V instead.
[3] Son of James V and Louise of France

What benefit does Sigismund gain from marrying his niece?

It's better for her to marry someone else, I don't see this match going any way


It would be better for Louise of France not to remain alive because she was the fiancée of Charles V and he would have probably married her because she had received a large dowry and Charles wanted a French or English wife and I do not see Francis I He wastes his eldest daughter in Scotland


The heiress of England will marry (the heir to Scotland, her half-uncle, the Duke of Burgundy, an English nobleman) and not an Austrian archduke. It is best to keep Ferdinand (1529-.), son of Charles V, and make Catherine I marry Ferdinand I , Duke of Burgundy

 

[Nova_Philomena]

Edward VI of England (1516-1560) [1] m. a) Charlotte of France (1516-1534) [2], b) Isabella Jagiellon (1519-1559)

1a) Katherine I of England (1532-1592) m. Ferdinand II of Austria (1529-1595)
2a) Charlotte of England (1534-1593) m. Philip II of Spain (1527-1598)
3b) Elizabeth of England (1537-1602) m. Sigismund II Augustus (1520-1572)
4b) Mary of England (1539-1601) m. James VI of Scotland (1540-1605) [3]


[1] Obviously he can't have uterine cancer if he's a man, so he lives a bit longer.
[2] Her sister Louise married James V instead.
[3] Son of James V and Louise of France

If Louise or Charlotte survived, one of them would've married Charles of Habsburg. The reason why he wasn't keen on initially marrying Isabella of Portugal was because he usually thought in terms of what was best for Burgundy, and initially Charles had no interest in marrying her because peace with France (Especially after the League of Cambrai) was more appealing considering Portugal was already pretty much on the Habsurg's side (With the marriages of Isabella of Aragon, Maria of Aragon and Eleanor of Austria to the Aviz King Manuel). Isabella of Portugal was Charles's last option, meaning Charlotte or Louise of Valois would be Charles's wife. Madeleine or Marguerite would be more appropriate in this scenario. The only real reason why his betrothal with Mary Tudor was broken off was because he had two of his earlier fiancees die, and he couldn't afford to risk it now that he was entering more and more wars, he originally was in no real rush to marry.

Why Isabella Jagiellon? The English have no interest in Poland, and considering the Jagiellonians are somewhat anti-Habsburg, Male!Mary would have no reason to want to marry a Polish Princess when there are younger princesses like Maria of Portugal available, or maybe have more of Catherine of Austria's daughters with John III survive.

And the eldest daughter of an English King would NEVER marry a second son, I think she'd marry Felipe II of Spain instead.

Sigismund Augustus would probably still marry a Habsburg Archduchess (Daughter of Ferdinand and Anna of B&H) despite Bona Sforza's OTL objections, if not an Austrian, then perhaps an Italian Princess to increase his chances of inheriting Ducal Bari.