List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage II

[eliamartin65]

Cool, so Philip would utilize burgundy as the base of the HRE?

Maybe.

Since this is a one-off, I won't elaborate. I'm just being a good friend.

 

[lost_in_night_dreams]

Suggestion Mary lives as long as max (1519)

Mary, Duchess of Burgundy (1457 - 1519) married Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor (1459 - 1519) in 1477.

1. Philip (b. 1478)
2. Margaret (b. 1480)
3. Francis (1481 - 1481)
4. Eleanor (b. 1482)
5. Ernest (b. 1484)
6. Mary (1485 - 1501)
7. Charles (b. 1487)
8. Rudolf (b. 1489)
9. Isabella (1490 - 1492)
10. Catherine (b. 1492)
11. Leopold (b. 1493)
12. Elizabeth (b. 1495)

 

[Dragonboy]

Mary, Duchess of Burgundy (1457 - 1519) married Maximilian I, Holy Roman Emperor (1459 - 1519) in 1477.

1. Philip (b. 1478)
2. Margaret (b. 1480)
3. Francis (1481 - 1481)
4. Eleanor (b. 1482)
5. Ernest (b. 1484)
6. Mary (1485 - 1501)
7. Charles (b. 1487)
8. Rudolf (b. 1489)
9. Isabella (1490 - 1492)
10. Catherine (b. 1492)
11. Leopold (b. 1493)
12. Elizabeth (b. 1495)

Awesome.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

No one joins the church 😒

as I've said to you before I doubt that that would be an option given that the Habsburgs didn't have an electoral vote until 1526 (OTL) and there are three ecclesiastical electorates available

 

[eliamartin65]

as I've said to you before I doubt that that would be an option given that the Habsburgs didn't have an electoral vote until 1526 (OTL) and there are three ecclesiastical electorates available

I have bad memories on characters joining the Church so I avoid it.

 

[lost_in_night_dreams]

Awesome.

Thank you for kind words!

 

[Nuraghe]

I have bad memories on characters joining the Church so I avoid it.

I can understand it, but for the Habsburgs or any Catholic dynasty ( whether self-respecting or sane ) it was a normal practice, indeed it was encouraged for minor children ( so that they could have important career prospects, which they would not have could have in other ways, it also made it possible not to have to divide the dynastic possessions among all the brothers, a practice which instead weakened family power ) finally for the HRE system, to have brothers who can aspire to manage the 3 ecclesiastical electorates or at least other dioceses important can greatly facilitate imperial rule by the main heir, so it's almost madness to imagine that Max and Maria would allow such a thing ( i.e. that not even one of their younger children in church )

I'm sorry Eli, don't be mean to me okay ?

 

[EdwardRex]

(Inspired by previous posts), Marie of Burgundy survives.

Maximilian, Holy Roman Emperor (1459-1519) m. Marie, Duchess of Burgundy (1457-1505)
1a. Philip, Duke of Burgundy (1478-1506) m. Catherine, Princess of England (1479-1527)
2a. Margaret, Archduchess of Austria (1480-1530) m. Juan, Prince of Asturias (1478-1504)
3a. Franz, Archduke of Austria (1481-1481)
4a. Eleanor, Archduchess of Austria (1483-1533) m. Vladislaus II, King of Hungary (1456-1516)
5a. Elisabeth, Archduchess of Austria (1485-1542) m. Sigismund, King of Poland (1467-1537)
6a. Ernst, Holy Roman Emperor (1486-1547) m. Catalina, Infanta of Spain (1485-1536)
7a. Stillborn Son (1488)
8a. Frederick, Bishop of Liege (1489-1552)
9a. Maria, Archduchess of Austria (1492-1546) - nun

Edward IV, King of England (1442-1486) m. Elizabeth Woodville (1439-1492)
1a. Elizabeth, Princess of England (1466-1523) m. Charles VIII, King of France (1470-1499)
2a. Mary, Princess of England (1467-1482)
3a. Cecily, Princess of England (1469-1509) m. Francis, Duke of Brittany (1433-1490)
4a. Edward V, King of England (1470-1516) m. Juana, Infanta of Spain (1479-1555)
5a. Margaret, Princess of England (1472-1472)
6a. Richard, Duke of York (1473-1529) m. Anne, Countess of Norfolk (1472-1481) m. Anne of Brittany (1477-1514)
7a. Anne, Princess of England (1475-1511) m. James IV, King of Scotland (1473-1507)
8a. George, Duke of Bedford (1477-1479)
9a. Catherine, Princess of England (1479-1527) m. Philip, Duke of Burgundy (1478-1506)
10a. Bridget, Princess of England (1480-1517) - nun

Ferdinand II, King of Aragon (1452-1516) m. Isabella, Queen of Castile (1451-1506)
1a. Isabella, Infanta of Portugal (1470-1538) m. Alfonso VI, King of Portugal (1475-1521)
2a. Stillborn Son (1475)
3a. Juan, Prince of Asturias (1478-1504) m. Margaret, Archduchess of Austria (1480-1530)
4a. Juana, Infanta of Spain (1479-1555) m. Edward V, King of England (1470-1516)
5a. Maria, Infanta of Spain (1482-1517) m. Ferdinand III, King of Naples (1488-1536)
6a. Ana, Infanta of Spain (1482-1547) - nun
7a. Catalina, Infanta of Spain (1485-1536) m. Ernst, Holy Roman Emperor (1486-1547)

 

[ordinarylittleme]

POD: Katherine Tudor was born a healthy boy.

Edward, Duke of Richmond (1503-1566) m. a) Elizabeth Grey, Viscountess Lisle (1505-1519), b) Anne Boleyn, Marchioness of Pembroke (1501-1561)

1a) Henry IX, King of England, 2nd Duke of Richmond (1519-1591) m. a) Mary I, Queen of England (1516-1558), b) Jane Seymour (1541-1561), c) Anne Herbert (1550-1592)
2b) Anne (1523-1576) m. William Parr (1513-1571)
3b) Thomas, 2nd Marquess of Pembroke (1525-1592) m. a) Katherine Howard (1523-1573), b) Helena Snakenborg (1549-1635)
4b) Edmund (1528-1584) m. a) Elisabeth Brooke (1526-1565), b) Katherine Hastings (1545-1620)
5b) George (1531-1581) m. Jane Fitzalan (1537-1578)
6b) Elizabeth (1533-1603) m. Robert Dudley (1532-1588)
7b) Mary (1536-1619) m. Edward Seymour (1539-1621)

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

POD: Katherine Tudor was born a healthy boy.

Edward, Duke of Richmond (1503-1566) m. a) Elizabeth Grey, Viscountess Lisle (1505-1519), b) Anne Boleyn, Marchioness of Pembroke (1501-1561)

1a) Henry, 2nd Duke of Richmond (1519-1591) m. a) Mary I, Queen of England (1516-1558), b) Jane Seymour (1541-1561), c) Anne Herbert (1550-1592)
2b) Anne (1523-1576) m. William Parr (1513-1571)
3b) Thomas, 2nd Marquess of Pembroke (1525-1592) m. a) Katherine Howard (1523-1573), b) Helena Snakenborg (1549-1635)
4b) Edmund (1528-1584) m. a) Elisabeth Brooke (1526-1565), b) Katherine Hastings (1545-1620)
5b) George (1531-1581) m. Jane Fitzalan (1537-1578)
6b) Elizabeth (1533-1603) m. Robert Dudley (1532-1588)
7b) Mary (1536-1619) m. Edward Seymour (1539-1621)

uh...dumb question, but why does Ned (and his daughters) get domestic matches? Ned would be thirteen when his niece is born, 15yo when Katherine's last child is a stillborn daughter. Feel like he'd get at least a second tier foreign match instead of a domestic heiress. Also, I doubt Henry VIII marries Jane Seymour if there was no Anne Boleyn (who I don't see being made marchioness of Pembroke TTL) to lead the way.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

uh...dumb question, but why does Ned (and his daughters) get domestic matches?

Edward marries first to a rich heiress who dies young, then he makes a dramatic love match when Anne returns to England. His daughters aren't princesses, I don't think, so I don't see how they'd get foreign princes...

Feel like he'd get at least a second tier foreign match instead of a domestic heiress.

The d'Auvergne sisters are a little too old, Isabella of Navarre is a little young

Also, I doubt Henry VIII marries Jane Seymour if there was no Anne Boleyn (who I don't see being made marchioness of Pembroke TTL) to lead the way.

Uh, he doesn't. The Jane here is the niece of OTL Queen Jane Seymour.

Anne Boleyn (who I don't see being made marchioness of Pembroke TTL)

Henry VIII did a favor for his brother like how he did one for his sister. Their spouses get titles that way

 

[Stahlo]

Edward marries first to a rich heiress who dies young, then he makes a dramatic love match when Anne returns to England. His daughters aren't princesses, I don't think, so I don't see how they'd get foreign princes...

They could serve as proxy matches, like how minor French princesses did.

 

[Dragonboy]

@ordinarylittleme how come edward's son henry didn't became henry IX of england by right of his first wife?

 

[ordinarylittleme]

@ordinarylittleme how come edward's son henry didn't became henry IX of england by right of his first wife?

I suppose he should be, but since he outlived her, he would lose his status as king upon her death so shouldn't he revert back to being Duke of Richmond? @isabella might know better...

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Uh, he doesn't. The Jane here is the niece of OTL Queen Jane Seymour.

I know that. But Jane Seymour isn't getting near the royal bed. Henry remarries here, it'll be to a princess

The d'Auvergne sisters are a little too old, Isabella of Navarre is a little young

because those are the only second tier princesses available? Suzanne de Bourbon-Montpensier, Anne/Catherine de Laval, Susanne of Bavaria, Isabella of Naples (b.1499/1500), Beatriz of Portugal (not second tier, but a match with an English second son would be better than a duke whose duchy was occupied by the French), not to mention the chance of any of René II of Lorraine or the duc de Longueville's daughters (b. 1502 and b.1508 respectively) surviving infancy.

Henry VIII did a favor for his brother like how he did one for his sister. Their spouses get titles that way

what favour did he do for his sister? Charles Brandon was created duke of Suffolk on 1 February 1514, Mary Tudor married Louis XII in August/October 1514. Why would he award the Pembroke title (which was left to Henry personally by his uncle Jasper) for his brother?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

he would lose his status as king upon her death so shouldn't he revert back to being Duke of Richmond?

why would he? He's next in line to the throne anyway?

They could serve as proxy matches, like how minor French princesses did.

exactly

 

[ordinarylittleme]

I know that. But Jane Seymour isn't getting near the royal bed. Henry remarries here, it'll be to a princess

Fair. I don't think he'll be getting great matches as dowager king consort, especially if he had sons with Mary (I'm debating on that one), but I suppose an archduchess would work

what favour did he do for his sister?

Not throw Brandon in prison after stripping away the dukedom (he did very technically commit treason) like the privy council wanted?

Beatriz of Portugal (not second tier, but a match with an English second son would be better than a duke whose duchy was occupied by the French)

I don't think Savoy was occupied when Beatrice married, to be fair

why would he? He's next in line to the throne anyway?

I was genuinely working off of OTL, where Philip II of Spain was jure uxoris king and lost all power upon Mary's death. I suppose I could justify it by a Mary/Darnley analogue, but maybe I'll just let Henry IX keep his titles and power

 

[Stahlo]

I was genuinely working off of OTL, where Philip II of Spain was jure uxoris king and lost all power upon Mary's death. I suppose I could justify it by a Mary/Darnley analogue, but maybe I'll just let Henry IX keep his titles and power

Phillip didn't have a blood claim to the English throne, but Henry IX would. After Mary's death, he'd be the senior claimant.

 

[ordinarylittleme]

Phillip didn't have a blood claim to the English throne, but Henry IX would. After Mary's death, he'd be the senior claimant.

I suppose so. In my draft their relationship is quite like OTL MQOS/Darnley...strong claimants marrying each other and then realizing they have nothing in common. MQOS wouldn't give Darnley the crown matrimonial for that reason. Then again, England doesn't have that...

 

[Dragonboy]

I suppose so. In my draft their relationship is quite like OTL MQOS/Darnley...strong claimants marrying each other and then realizing they have nothing in common. MQOS wouldn't give Darnley the crown matrimonial for that reason. Then again, England doesn't have that...

So he and mary didn't have any kids?