Keep Five Points as an existing neighbourhood

[othyrsyde]

@rob: It's a kind of recreation. It's more of "a neighbourhood in the basic area of the Victorian-era "Five Points", with the same name and reputation as a rookery, but with different streets making up the Points intersection. The plot is inspired by "Oliver Twist" and the story is steampunk.

The protagonist's a young boy nicknamed Dodger and is basically a half Black version of the Artful Dodger (inspired partially by Lionel Bart's take on the character*). There are lots of mentions of baby farming, prostitution and the fencing of stolen goods.

*Bart's musical has a slightly lighter tone but still keeps a lot of the spirit of the novel. And there's "You've Got To Pick A Pocket Or Two". Seriously that song is kind of vaudeville-ish, and Ron Moody sounds kind of like Al Jolson. I think that style of singing was very poplar from the 1920s onwards for actors in musical theatre- clear diction, vocal tricks. BTW, no-one sings that song, or "I'd Do Anything" or "As Long As He Needs Me" in my novel. "All My Trials", "Alexander's Ragtime Band", and "Give My Regards To Broadway" turn up*

This sounds beautiful!

 

[Morwen Edhelwen]

This sounds beautiful!

Thanks, othyrsyde.

 

[MRig]

@rob: It's a kind of recreation. It's more of "a neighbourhood in the basic area of the Victorian-era "Five Points", with the same name and reputation as a rookery, but with different streets making up the Points intersection. The plot is inspired by "Oliver Twist" and the story is steampunk.

The protagonist's a young boy nicknamed Dodger and is basically a half Black version of the Artful Dodger (inspired partially by Lionel Bart's take on the character*). There are lots of mentions of baby farming, prostitution and the fencing of stolen goods.

*Bart's musical has a slightly lighter tone but still keeps a lot of the spirit of the novel. And there's "You've Got To Pick A Pocket Or Two". Seriously that song is kind of vaudeville-ish, and Ron Moody sounds kind of like Al Jolson. I think that style of singing was very poplar from the 1920s onwards for actors in musical theatre- clear diction, vocal tricks. BTW, no-one sings that song, or "I'd Do Anything" or "As Long As He Needs Me" in my novel. "All My Trials", "Alexander's Ragtime Band", and "Give My Regards To Broadway" turn up*

So the story takes place in an alternate, steampunk version of the 19th century? In what time period is the story set?

I was under the impression that this was sometime in the future, which is why I was talking about 20th century urban planning trends, but steampunk means an earlier point of divergence.

In that case, you could essentially create your own Five Points, and do an alternate take on the period. Maybe the streets are the same, but they have different names. Maybe it's not Irish immigration, but Italian or Roma. Maybe earlier emancipation and a great war a few years ago have led to an earlier Great Migration. Maybe the United States isn't a country, and the Five Points takes place in the Republic of New York. Maybe the city is still New Amsterdam.

Or not! I am intrigued by this. I find that this forum is great for getting ideas about backstory, so I'd like to hear what sort of Five Points you would like your story to be set in.

 

[Morwen Edhelwen]

So the story takes place in an alternate, steampunk version of the 19th century? In what time period is the story set?

I was under the impression that this was sometime in the future, which is why I was talking about 20th century urban planning trends, but steampunk means an earlier point of divergence.

In that case, you could essentially create your own Five Points, and do an alternate take on the period. Maybe the streets are the same, but they have different names. Maybe it's not Irish immigration, but Italian or Roma. Maybe earlier emancipation and a great war a few years ago have led to an earlier Great Migration. Maybe the United States isn't a country, and the Five Points takes place in the Republic of New York. Maybe the city is still New Amsterdam.



Or not! I am intrigued by this. I find that this forum is great for getting ideas about backstory, so I'd like to hear what sort of Five Points you would like your story to be set in.

Actually, steampunk isn't always set in the past. There are quite a few post-apocalyptic steampunk books (Mortal Engines is the first series I can think of) taking place the future. It's the future, but a steammpunk future.

 

[Morwen Edhelwen]

Oliver Twist was written in 1837 and first published in book form in several volumes but the mood/aesthetic of the future borrows mostly from gangster/heist movies. So it's kind of a mix of time periods.

 

[Morwen Edhelwen]

Anyone still reading this thread?

 

[MRig]

Actually, steampunk isn't always set in the past. There are quite a few post-apocalyptic steampunk books (Mortal Engines is the first series I can think of) taking place the future. It's the future, but a steammpunk future.

Cool! Then I guess the next question I would have is, what is the backstory of your world that is leading towards that future? Is it post-apocalyptic? What sort of apocalypse?

If current transportation technologies are knocked offline, and Manhattan becomes, still a great city at the center of world commerce, but with more expensive energy thus more movement by foot, streetcar, ship, and dirigible. The conditions of the Five Points were at a time of mass migration into the cities from the countryside, and a second Industrial Revolution after the cataclysm could produce a similar situation.

Here's one vision of the future. I think it's a bit overwrought, and not critical enough of the New Urbanists (Kunstler is one), but it's a powerful image. http://www.kunstler.com/mags_cities_of_the_future.html

I think this will lead to an epochal demographic shift, a reversal of the 200-year-long trend of people moving from the farms and rural places to the big cities. Instead, I believe we will see is a substantial contraction of our cities at the same time that they densify at their cores and along their waterfronts. A preview of this can be seen in Baltimore today. The remaining viable fabric of the pre-automobile city is relatively tiny and concentrated in the old center around a complex harbor system. With little need for industrial workers, vast neighborhoods of row housing built for them are either abandoned or inhabited now only by such economically distressed people that abandonment is inevitable. The pattern of contraction may not be identical in all American cities.

This situation is depicted masterfully in The Wire, which takes an unsentimental (but realistic, as the guys on probation I know can attest) view of these contracting neighborhoods, which are the Five Points of our time. The Five Points, however, was at a time when the city core was growing, not contracting. This could explain why Lower Manhattan is a slum once again--it is one of those neighborhoods, like West Baltimore, that was largely abandoned after gentrification--the condo high-rises became ruins, the government facilities were relocated to smaller quarters, old vacants were razed to make farming plots, and then, when the steam-powered factories went up, people flooded back. This would have to be quite a cataclysm to depopulate lower Manhattan, but if it happened, sooner or later the people would come back, and the Five Points can be a dense, low-rise, five-street corner for the unwashed masses once again.