In this country , it is good to kill an admiral from time to time
- Thread starter Antony444
- Start date
Yes, it's a bit unfair...isn't it?
Oh, the Carolinas and Florida have already pelnty of excuses to squabble, don't worry.
Greece bought one battleship to have a naval shield/sword against the Ottomans should it be necessary (the Sublime Porte's two are older and also foreign-built).
Not to mention naval stagnation doesn't interest them very much. A lack of new constructions and new classes of warships impose employ cuts, a lack of experience when build-up will once again become unavoidable, and of course there's the fact that if the UPNG is willing to admit its resources are stretched financing their current fleet, well France and England aren't going to make things easier for them.
What benefits does owning Taiwan even give California? It seems that for the time being they are wasting money and lives over it just for ego.
Also, I saw that Brunei has a battleship (good for them, I kind of like them as a nation ITTL) and was wondering how they’re doing? Would it be possible for you to make a small chapter on them in the future? No pressure.
Also, I saw that Brunei has a battleship (good for them, I kind of like them as a nation ITTL) and was wondering how they’re doing? Would it be possible for you to make a small chapter on them in the future? No pressure.
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Didn't stop a lot of European countries to doing that IRL even when it put them in opposition with everyone else.
It's mosly a matter of prestige : They lost the war globally so every gain the did made must be keep or the defeat would be even more pronounced.
Otherwise I note than neither Spain, Florida or the Cape seems to have participate and with their tendency to attack at the first sign of weakness the treaty is even more dead in the water than if it was just the French and English out of it.
Actually, given the current French domination, I believe they could accept a treaty which freezes the number of battleships at current numbers. I believe they have parity with the next 5 naval power combined.
But can you imagine France trusting all to respect the accords? I wouldn't believe the Russian or the Chinese, for different reasons. In fact, the Central Alliance had already demonstrate their willingness to not adhere to a written accord when it's useful for them, who would believe them? Seriously.
They got extremely cocky just because they beat a tiny French garrison on an insignificant colony, and now reality is smacking them in the face.
They need a larger population since that is how they will build a large domestic economy and workforce (not to mention a large army). 18.5 million (excluding the colonies) won't cut it if they want to remain a "Great Power", they need to get that number up big time.
Don't they also have native populations who hate them and have literally nothing to lose?
Well, I did say a moment ago, that I saw them as a Batavia 2.0, a little better but in the end, they are more interest in immediate profits than strategic gains. Chile is sure to betray them at one point. I just hope the Chilean (with the very close exemple of Brazil) will succeed in their endeavor.
The Line of Battle (Naval Affairs 1913)
Contrary to what many of the UPNG and other Central Alliance’s politicians thought, the Empire of France and the Kingdom of England had not placed fingers in their ears and closed their eyes when the new naval program of the Chinese Empire.
In fact, many rulers and ministers around the world would have been astonished to know that London had gained reliable information and the objectives Empress Ren intended to pursue with them: one of the Chinese Minister of War’s many assistants had a lovely mistress he regularly betrayed his nation for, and it was not long before the Royal Navy had a treasury of information upon their desks.
The good news was that, as far as the analysts were able to ascertain, the Entente was not the enemy the Chinese naval forces wanted to fight with. The bad news was that this program was incredibly ambitious – the UPNG spokesmen didn’t exaggerate when they said it would make China the fourth most powerful nation on the waves – and they were very unpleasant surprises hidden in it. Surprises the Central Alliance had missed, so far, due to the hulls being constructed far from prying eyes. First were the submarines. These were not the barely seafaring hulls of the Great War, which were only able to plunge for a couple of minutes when they attacked their targets. These were true underwater predators, armed with new torpedoes, and the Chinese planned several classes of them over the next two decades, with an expensive program of research and development. The English Admiralty was prompt to name them ‘Sharks’ when they saw the plans.
The Chinese Navy was planning to build and maintain over one hundred of them. Assuming two-thirds of them could be unleashed at the onset of a conflict, it would be a massacre of merchant ships. The Admirals of the British Isles knew by their recent war games’ experience against their own submarines how hard it was to protect adequately their capital ships at all times. Civilian ships would have no choice but to travel in convoys. To do otherwise would be risking catastrophic and dolorous losses.
Then there was the second potential threat, although this one was only recognised when the French Admiralty intelligence services obtained photographs of them. Like the Toulon fleet had begun five years before, the Chinese ship-builders had invested in aircraft carriers. Granted for the moment none of the planes in question were able to land on one intact, but the casualties’ rate for the seaplane tenders and the carriers of La Royale weren’t that good either.
When one added the improved range of the new classes of battleships, these cruisers and the torpedo-launchers escorts, only one conclusion could be reached: the Empire of China had begun a very, very serious naval armament to make sure the stalemate they faced during the end of their civil war was not a scenario which would repeat itself again.
The real question was what to do about it now.
Several veteran officers on the both sides of the Channel pushed for involving themselves in the naval conference which was going to open in a few days at Panama. After all, the simplest and easiest solution to avoid a new rearmament race and a probable second Great War was to squash the ambitions of the reunited Chinese realm by the combined pressure of the Great Powers. Yes, everyone would know this ‘moratorium period’ to not build capital ships and other interesting toys was sheer nonsense, but it would do the job and guarantee that in the next decades, the future Entente Admirals weren’t going to wake up with a Chinese armada dominating the entire Pacific Ocean.
Naturally, this position was far from universal. First, many French Admirals had no enmity for the Chinese, but plenty of animosity against the Granadans. It wasn’t Empress Ren or one of her predecessors who had attacked Guyana and supported Louisiana during the Great War. It was not the Asians of Guangzhou which had blocked their expansion in the East Indies and forced them on a long struggle on every continent. And for all its rising power, it was evident China was funding this navy to crush the Central Alliance. Going to Panama would do nothing but burn the last bridges they had with China and ensure they would have to fight side by side with the UPNG and California when the time came. And the popular mood these days, among the sailors or the population they recruited from, was far from favourable the Alliance.
Moreover, the higher spheres of the French government, and this included Empress Charlotte, were far from amused at the idea of one group of nations imposing to others what they could and couldn’t do in domains of naval building. There was a lot of industrial interests and workers’ pockets whose lives depended on keeping a minimal number of new ships built every year. And from India to America, the French shipyards weren’t operating at anything like a war-time capacity right now.
No, in this instance the French Admiralty was ordered to wait and see what the unavoidable fall-out was going to be. And diplomats were sent to Ireland, Bengal and several other allies of the Entente, advising France’s allies this Naval Conference had to appear like a congress organised by the Central Alliance, whose outcome was decided by the Central Alliance, and directed against the Enemies of the Central Alliance.
And as the games continued in the shadows, the delegations arrived at Panama...
Contrary to what many of the UPNG and other Central Alliance’s politicians thought, the Empire of France and the Kingdom of England had not placed fingers in their ears and closed their eyes when the new naval program of the Chinese Empire.
In fact, many rulers and ministers around the world would have been astonished to know that London had gained reliable information and the objectives Empress Ren intended to pursue with them: one of the Chinese Minister of War’s many assistants had a lovely mistress he regularly betrayed his nation for, and it was not long before the Royal Navy had a treasury of information upon their desks.
The good news was that, as far as the analysts were able to ascertain, the Entente was not the enemy the Chinese naval forces wanted to fight with. The bad news was that this program was incredibly ambitious – the UPNG spokesmen didn’t exaggerate when they said it would make China the fourth most powerful nation on the waves – and they were very unpleasant surprises hidden in it. Surprises the Central Alliance had missed, so far, due to the hulls being constructed far from prying eyes. First were the submarines. These were not the barely seafaring hulls of the Great War, which were only able to plunge for a couple of minutes when they attacked their targets. These were true underwater predators, armed with new torpedoes, and the Chinese planned several classes of them over the next two decades, with an expensive program of research and development. The English Admiralty was prompt to name them ‘Sharks’ when they saw the plans.
The Chinese Navy was planning to build and maintain over one hundred of them. Assuming two-thirds of them could be unleashed at the onset of a conflict, it would be a massacre of merchant ships. The Admirals of the British Isles knew by their recent war games’ experience against their own submarines how hard it was to protect adequately their capital ships at all times. Civilian ships would have no choice but to travel in convoys. To do otherwise would be risking catastrophic and dolorous losses.
Then there was the second potential threat, although this one was only recognised when the French Admiralty intelligence services obtained photographs of them. Like the Toulon fleet had begun five years before, the Chinese ship-builders had invested in aircraft carriers. Granted for the moment none of the planes in question were able to land on one intact, but the casualties’ rate for the seaplane tenders and the carriers of La Royale weren’t that good either.
When one added the improved range of the new classes of battleships, these cruisers and the torpedo-launchers escorts, only one conclusion could be reached: the Empire of China had begun a very, very serious naval armament to make sure the stalemate they faced during the end of their civil war was not a scenario which would repeat itself again.
The real question was what to do about it now.
Several veteran officers on the both sides of the Channel pushed for involving themselves in the naval conference which was going to open in a few days at Panama. After all, the simplest and easiest solution to avoid a new rearmament race and a probable second Great War was to squash the ambitions of the reunited Chinese realm by the combined pressure of the Great Powers. Yes, everyone would know this ‘moratorium period’ to not build capital ships and other interesting toys was sheer nonsense, but it would do the job and guarantee that in the next decades, the future Entente Admirals weren’t going to wake up with a Chinese armada dominating the entire Pacific Ocean.
Naturally, this position was far from universal. First, many French Admirals had no enmity for the Chinese, but plenty of animosity against the Granadans. It wasn’t Empress Ren or one of her predecessors who had attacked Guyana and supported Louisiana during the Great War. It was not the Asians of Guangzhou which had blocked their expansion in the East Indies and forced them on a long struggle on every continent. And for all its rising power, it was evident China was funding this navy to crush the Central Alliance. Going to Panama would do nothing but burn the last bridges they had with China and ensure they would have to fight side by side with the UPNG and California when the time came. And the popular mood these days, among the sailors or the population they recruited from, was far from favourable the Alliance.
Moreover, the higher spheres of the French government, and this included Empress Charlotte, were far from amused at the idea of one group of nations imposing to others what they could and couldn’t do in domains of naval building. There was a lot of industrial interests and workers’ pockets whose lives depended on keeping a minimal number of new ships built every year. And from India to America, the French shipyards weren’t operating at anything like a war-time capacity right now.
No, in this instance the French Admiralty was ordered to wait and see what the unavoidable fall-out was going to be. And diplomats were sent to Ireland, Bengal and several other allies of the Entente, advising France’s allies this Naval Conference had to appear like a congress organised by the Central Alliance, whose outcome was decided by the Central Alliance, and directed against the Enemies of the Central Alliance.
And as the games continued in the shadows, the delegations arrived at Panama...
Wow, the Chinese mean business when it comes to building ships...
I'm starting to grow a hatred for the UPNG due to how arrogant and entitled they now feel (China wants their rightful land back? Clearly that's their fault).
Also, does the Empress of China have any daughters or sisters? Just curious, in case the Empress feels like a royal marriage to a foreign noble could help forge an alliance.
I'm starting to grow a hatred for the UPNG due to how arrogant and entitled they now feel (China wants their rightful land back? Clearly that's their fault).
Also, does the Empress of China have any daughters or sisters? Just curious, in case the Empress feels like a royal marriage to a foreign noble could help forge an alliance.
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The Chinese are in full Every-Foreigner-is-an-Ennemy mode (they just have a list of priorities with California and UPNG at the top and Russia probably also pretty high) so there will be no alliance with anyone.
And the French and English look to be "helping" the Conference by making sure it will be view as Central Alliance dickat on everyone else.
Naval Conference (Naval Affairs 1913-1914)
Before the first delegation had arrived, the conference for a naval disarmament, or so the UPNG government had designated it by this name, had been incredibly troublesome.
This tendency, alas, did not vanish after it officially opened.
Many nations had come to Panama, that much couldn’t be questioned. But if the majority thought a new race to build the biggest, most powerful battleships around was ill-advisable, the motives largely differed. California, obviously, wanted to stop the Chinese Navy from rising and becoming an indomitable colossus dominating the Pacific and East Asia in general. But other nations sometimes just wanted to decrease the extensive costs of maintenance and shipbuilding that their treasuries had difficulties financing.
The economical legacy of the Great War was not yet over by 1913. Plenty of the invited delegations were from republics and kingdoms on their way to recovery, but the scars were still present. And few diplomats wanting a second round of the Great War supported the view of august retired Admirals; which was that the surest way to prevent China to gain a blue-water navy worthy of the name was to attack right now and destroy it. And damn the consequences.
Bengali and Irish delegates, both because of French influence and their own strategic goals, protested against this move immediately. Calcutta had not been particularly impressed by the Alliance’s willingness of blockading China, and the Bengali Generals had not wish to fight the Chinese in a land war.
Russia was at the other end of the political spectrum. The noble leading them, a particularly wealthy Duke residing usually in the city of Saint Petersburg, made clear his Empress had absolutely not forgotten the abandon of their client state in Wu China, a defeat which had certainly been accelerated by shipments of obsolete weapons from the previous Chuan ruler.
Russia was all too willing to limit the naval rearmament of China, by blood and explosions if it was necessary. But there were many conditions to Moscow’s help. First above all, Empress Anastasia wanted to make clear any ultimatum directed towards Guangzhou would mention a general disarmament in the Pacific. The Tsarina, having a navy dispersed on four theatres, didn’t want to suppress a rising power only to see the crowning of another five or six years down the line. Then there was the issue of the conflict itself. Since China was the only nation to boast more manpower than the French Empire, every country which wanted to restrain its influence and reach would have to contribute a significant expedition force in infantry and artillery should it come to war. Third, the French Empire and the English, both owning the largest battle-fleets around, had to be convinced to stand on their side or at least observe tacit benevolent neutrality.
There were many other points, most of them which were not exactly welcomed with joys and smiles. The only issue the majority agreed with was that France and England had to be friendly – no one was under illusion that the war would be short and winnable if Paris allied with the Celestial Throne. The rest provoked countless disputes and critics. The UPNG had its own ambitions in the Pacific, and assuming they seized completely the sea lanes in Eastern Asia, the traders and the magnates of the Alliance had no intention to abandon the spoils of victory.
Not that it was the only problem. Many military and non-military men feared what a reunited, modern, vigorous China could do to their pockets and spheres of influence. But a lot of said men also remained extremely wary of Russia and France, the winners of the Great War. There were delegates who worried their people would not understand the subtle policies of worldwide affairs, and may riot when the young boys were sent overseas to fight a civilisation they had no reason to hate.
The duo UPNG and California tried long and hard to form a union, negotiating hard on every subject.
But it came to nothing. As more and more primary and secondary delegations arrived from Europe, it became evident that allying with Russia would be earning the enmity of most of Central Europe and more. Even Peru and a few other New World countries were unconvinced the new fleet of China would make them more dangerous than a potentially victorious Russia.
And in the end, the harsh reality was that, aside from Russia, no one was willing to send an ultimatum to China in good and due form. Europe, North and South America, Asia; no matter the continent, the ruler and the politicians were of the opinion that the Central Alliance had begun this mess, and it was the job of the Central Alliance to finish it, pacifically or militarily.
The Russians walked out of the talks shortly after. Moscow had decreed no treaty was better than a bad treaty, and the top spokesmen followed this order to the letter. They weren’t the only ones. Ireland, Bengal and Japan would follow suit in February 1914 without a single signature being written on any biding document.
Strangely, it was not the worse news for this failed summit at Panama. Five days after the Japanese emissaries had sailed back towards their home, the Ambassador of Carolina was nearly murdered by a sailor who had too much abused of the local alcoholic beverages.
Maybe this incident would have made the headlines for one or two days without being forgotten if not for the fact the aggressor was a Floridian.
Things went rapidly out of control. The delegations of Carolina and the Directorate swiftly tried to remember which of their debates in the last three months could be constructed as offensive or having a potential to give a military advantage to their neighbours, and the events didn’t stop there. Soon threats were screamed from every corner of the table, under the consternated or amused eyes of their peers. Insults were uttered. Duels to the first blood were fought in dark alleys and parks. Military attachés died.
And on March 4, the Directorate of Florida declared war to the Republic of the Carolinas, which immediately reciprocated. The failure of the naval disarmament talks were announced two weeks later, but by that time the journalists of North America had far more important news to give to their readers...
Before the first delegation had arrived, the conference for a naval disarmament, or so the UPNG government had designated it by this name, had been incredibly troublesome.
This tendency, alas, did not vanish after it officially opened.
Many nations had come to Panama, that much couldn’t be questioned. But if the majority thought a new race to build the biggest, most powerful battleships around was ill-advisable, the motives largely differed. California, obviously, wanted to stop the Chinese Navy from rising and becoming an indomitable colossus dominating the Pacific and East Asia in general. But other nations sometimes just wanted to decrease the extensive costs of maintenance and shipbuilding that their treasuries had difficulties financing.
The economical legacy of the Great War was not yet over by 1913. Plenty of the invited delegations were from republics and kingdoms on their way to recovery, but the scars were still present. And few diplomats wanting a second round of the Great War supported the view of august retired Admirals; which was that the surest way to prevent China to gain a blue-water navy worthy of the name was to attack right now and destroy it. And damn the consequences.
Bengali and Irish delegates, both because of French influence and their own strategic goals, protested against this move immediately. Calcutta had not been particularly impressed by the Alliance’s willingness of blockading China, and the Bengali Generals had not wish to fight the Chinese in a land war.
Russia was at the other end of the political spectrum. The noble leading them, a particularly wealthy Duke residing usually in the city of Saint Petersburg, made clear his Empress had absolutely not forgotten the abandon of their client state in Wu China, a defeat which had certainly been accelerated by shipments of obsolete weapons from the previous Chuan ruler.
Russia was all too willing to limit the naval rearmament of China, by blood and explosions if it was necessary. But there were many conditions to Moscow’s help. First above all, Empress Anastasia wanted to make clear any ultimatum directed towards Guangzhou would mention a general disarmament in the Pacific. The Tsarina, having a navy dispersed on four theatres, didn’t want to suppress a rising power only to see the crowning of another five or six years down the line. Then there was the issue of the conflict itself. Since China was the only nation to boast more manpower than the French Empire, every country which wanted to restrain its influence and reach would have to contribute a significant expedition force in infantry and artillery should it come to war. Third, the French Empire and the English, both owning the largest battle-fleets around, had to be convinced to stand on their side or at least observe tacit benevolent neutrality.
There were many other points, most of them which were not exactly welcomed with joys and smiles. The only issue the majority agreed with was that France and England had to be friendly – no one was under illusion that the war would be short and winnable if Paris allied with the Celestial Throne. The rest provoked countless disputes and critics. The UPNG had its own ambitions in the Pacific, and assuming they seized completely the sea lanes in Eastern Asia, the traders and the magnates of the Alliance had no intention to abandon the spoils of victory.
Not that it was the only problem. Many military and non-military men feared what a reunited, modern, vigorous China could do to their pockets and spheres of influence. But a lot of said men also remained extremely wary of Russia and France, the winners of the Great War. There were delegates who worried their people would not understand the subtle policies of worldwide affairs, and may riot when the young boys were sent overseas to fight a civilisation they had no reason to hate.
The duo UPNG and California tried long and hard to form a union, negotiating hard on every subject.
But it came to nothing. As more and more primary and secondary delegations arrived from Europe, it became evident that allying with Russia would be earning the enmity of most of Central Europe and more. Even Peru and a few other New World countries were unconvinced the new fleet of China would make them more dangerous than a potentially victorious Russia.
And in the end, the harsh reality was that, aside from Russia, no one was willing to send an ultimatum to China in good and due form. Europe, North and South America, Asia; no matter the continent, the ruler and the politicians were of the opinion that the Central Alliance had begun this mess, and it was the job of the Central Alliance to finish it, pacifically or militarily.
The Russians walked out of the talks shortly after. Moscow had decreed no treaty was better than a bad treaty, and the top spokesmen followed this order to the letter. They weren’t the only ones. Ireland, Bengal and Japan would follow suit in February 1914 without a single signature being written on any biding document.
Strangely, it was not the worse news for this failed summit at Panama. Five days after the Japanese emissaries had sailed back towards their home, the Ambassador of Carolina was nearly murdered by a sailor who had too much abused of the local alcoholic beverages.
Maybe this incident would have made the headlines for one or two days without being forgotten if not for the fact the aggressor was a Floridian.
Things went rapidly out of control. The delegations of Carolina and the Directorate swiftly tried to remember which of their debates in the last three months could be constructed as offensive or having a potential to give a military advantage to their neighbours, and the events didn’t stop there. Soon threats were screamed from every corner of the table, under the consternated or amused eyes of their peers. Insults were uttered. Duels to the first blood were fought in dark alleys and parks. Military attachés died.
And on March 4, the Directorate of Florida declared war to the Republic of the Carolinas, which immediately reciprocated. The failure of the naval disarmament talks were announced two weeks later, but by that time the journalists of North America had far more important news to give to their readers...
There is a failling to find an accord at an international conference and there is what happen there.
Man the French and Chinese observators must been too busy rolling on the floor after seeing such a monumental screw-up.
They didn't even need to do anything to have the whole conference derail.
Man the French and Chinese observators must been too busy rolling on the floor after seeing such a monumental screw-up.
They didn't even need to do anything to have the whole conference derail.
They had been somewhat modernizing for the 3-4 decades before the Great War (they really tried but the gap was too big to close), but unlike the North the Chuan Dynasty was able to focus on modern equipment during the Great War instead of throwing men at the enemy. After the war, Chuan China not only focused on industry (their hatred of foreigners fueling them), but they basically stole the blueprints for some Danish ships and reversed engineered the technology.