In this country , it is good to kill an admiral from time to time

Israel_Dan the Man

I just realized, if you think about it, this timeline is in many ways quite a bit darker and less pleasant than our own reality.

First, let's look at the positives:
1. France, Russia, Poland, Austria-Hungary and the Ottoman Empire are certainly more successful and better to live in than IOTL.
2. India and China are way more developed and have economies and armies rivaling those of Europe (and won't suffer nearly as much at the hands of the West)
3. South America (except Brazil and OTL Argentina) is much more successful and can stand out on the world stage (especially the UPNG)
4. No Imperialist Japan (yet)
5. No powerful but evil communist nation (yet)


Now for the negatives:
1. The Great War alone killed more people than OTL WW1 and WW2 combined
2. France, despite being morally good, is not perfect and is basically unstoppable, while OTL after WW1 there were multiple great powers that kept each other in check (until Chamberlain became a spineless coward and gave in to Hitler's demands).
3. Many countries are worse to live in than IOTL, like Brazil, Germany post-Great War, and any Central Alliance and European country that was invaded during the war, tbh
4. Slavery still exists in places like Florida and Spain, where by OTL 1912 it was decades since any major nation did slavery
5. Colonialism and native treatment in Africa is just as bad if not worse than IOTL
6. No League of Nations or London treaties to prevent major wars
7. The Damocles War likely killed as many people as the OTL Napoleon wars did, and I wouldn't be surprised if in general more people died during the 19th century ITTL from wars than IOTL
8. Batavia (Indonesia) was way more evil ITTL than IOTL.
9. Not only is the world population of TTL much smaller than OTL (OTL had 1.6 billion in 1900 while TTL post Great War I would say there is only about 1.4 billion since the world has yet to fully heal from 110 million dead people), but quite a few countries have less people than IOTL, like Germany, Brazil, Japan, Russia, North America (but then again French America ITTL is a lot nicer than OTL douchebag US), China (400 million OTL vs 370 million ITTL), the Hindustan nation ITTL (yes the British were monsters in India IOTL but the Republic of Hindustan is still worse to live in), Italy, the list goes on.
10. The Republic of the Cape exists.
11. Civil Wars and revolts seem to be far more frequent around the globe ITTL than IOTL during the same time.
12. Spain is a racist state that has the religious people running a lot of the government.
 
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Sébastien

Ah, the Florida-Carolina War is the cherry on the top for the total conquest of North America.

RandomWriterGuy said:
After everything that has happened in this TL I am surprised that Switzerland is still intact with its OTL borders. I'm surprised the French didn't even annex the French part of it.
Click to expand...

I don't think there were any part of Switzerland with a French speaking people majority and North Italy is already hard enough to digest.
 

Azureora

At this point, France is in the war to simply stop the spread of Anarchism and more importantly, it’s finances. But how does it plan on forcing Switzerland to pay back its debts? Do what the Allies did to Germany and basically saddle it with an astronomical debt?
 

Israel_Dan the Man

Azureora said:
At this point, France is in the war to simply stop the spread of Anarchism and more importantly, it’s finances. But how does it plan on forcing Switzerland to pay back its debts? Do what the Allies did to Germany and basically saddle it with an astronomical debt?
Click to expand...
No. Germany IOTL actually had the potential to pay back at least some of the astronomical reparations demanded of it (it had 65 million people and an industrialized economy), not to mention Germany did a lot more IOTL to warrant astronomical debt from France than Switzerland did.

What I am wondering is, what is going on with good ol' Oman? I mean, I know that they lost Aden and their colonial Empire during the Great War, but I wonder how they're handling the post-war era? After all, they were one of the top 10 economies in the world before the Great War (it was in one of the pages before the Great War). Besides, their one of the only losers to not end with revolt and/or devastation, even if a major port city was taken.
 

Sébastien

OTL, after the crack of '29, France sent his army in the Rhür to directly take what was owned. Do I need to explain how Hitler uses this humiliating moves to access power in '33? Still, let's not forget Germany had commit some distasteful acts against France and Belgium during the war. France wasn't in any mood to be play nice with Germany.
I suppose that TTL Switzerland could be occupied to make the hard choice and liquidating the assets that can be bought and sell. It would not be enough but it would be a start... Does votation already existed at this point in time? They could asked to be annexed by another country.
 
Antony444

Antony444

A Temporary End to Anarchy (Switzerland 1912)


With the withdrawal of the Bavarian forces, the possibility of the Dual Republic of Hungary-Austria deciding to send troops into Swiss territory went from high to nearly non-existent. And the odds of the Anarchist Revolutionary Committee establishing their favourite political system at Bern and the other major cities went from ‘frankly mediocre’ to ‘totally inexistent’.

The Swiss Republic’s citizens had been unhappy with their government and their bankers, yes. But they had not signed for a conventional war with the French Empire. Larger countries than their own had tried this during the Great War and imploded or exploded from the consequences of such an ill-advised conflict.

Anyway, the pre-crisis Switzerland would have required a lot of allies and miraculous interventions to claim a few victories against the French titan. The post-crisis state, divided in the three unequal blocks that were the Anarchist Revolutionary Committee, the Alpine League and the Italian Republic in-Exiled, economically ruined, was not able to sustain a war effort in any shape or form.

The bad news didn’t stop there. Plenty of anarchist fighters, once the French intervention began, saw no reason to die for the conflict their insurrection had contributed to engineer. Yes, they had been born in Switzerland; but they had also visited a lot of foreign countries and their revolution was to be a worldwide one. The ARC had lost a battle, but it would win the war...eventually. For now, their goal was to transport out of the country as many Great War-era ammunition stocks, weapons and supplies as possible, since they had looted the Army depots.

These weren’t exactly actions prompt to endear the Anarchist movement to the average family. ‘First the bankers came and we had no money. Then the Anarchists came and we had no country and no army’: these sentences were repeated a lot in diverse variants in the summer of 1912. For all the promises of eternal resistance, of dying on the last barricade, of fighting the French to the last bullet and the last man, the soldiers of the Black Lynx showed a massive disinclination to meet head-on the Westphalians and the French regulars with weapons in hand.

The only ‘victory’ the notoriously infamous ideology could boast about was the fact most of its leaders escaped being taken prisoner. It was extremely fortunate for them, because while they had executed many ministers and decapitated the country, Switzerland’s justice system was intact...and the judges have very little inclination showing mercy to people who had been labelling people of their profession ‘enemies of the true society’. Over five thousand anarchists of all ranks would be executed by firing squad before December.

The west and the north of the Republic being taken care of, the French-Westphalian juggernaut threw its divisions against the Alpine League and the Italian Republic in-Exile respectively in the east and the south.

And the war turned uglier. Many of the exilic Italians refused to cross the frontier and find refuge in lands which were governed by the Regensburg government. The French had forced them to flee their homeland once; there would be no second time. As for the faction built by the charisma and the money of Stefan Dallenbach, escape was not an option: neither Hungary-Austria nor Bavaria wanted to welcome him or his partisans. More emphasis was pushed towards irregular warfare and bleeding the future occupying forces with raids, sabotage and assassinations.

If the Italians managed to survive the months of summer and autumn despite suffering crippling losses, the Dallenbach faction disintegrated long before the arrest of its self-proclaimed dictator in September. The Alpine League had never been popular past the initial moment of euphoria, and its bloody deeds had decreased a lot this meagre support. And of course a lot of the Alpine propaganda depended on the French annexing the Swiss Republic. It was something that absolutely failed to materialise. At the beginning of August, the French had already recognised a new government, led by a former deputy minister and some high-profile figures of the anti-anarchist resistance.

Stefan Dallenbach, Protector of the Alpine League, would face his judges in November and be condemned by the very laws he had stamped upon in his quest for power.

By this point, the fate of the Italian Republic in-exile was sealed. The French did not inspire much sympathy – and would inspire even less as the price of survive was revealed to be economic tutelage – but the Swiss of the western and northern provinces had rallied behind their new government and the army of Switzerland saw the opportunity to regain some dignity by crushing rebels. Obviously, these people were no loyal citizens...and it was time to teach it to them. The conflict would leave many scars in southern Switzerland, and it was only in May 1913 complete pacification was achieved.

On a map of Europe, the consequences were invisible: Empress Charlotte I of France respected her promise and did not annex any part of Switzerland, returning to Bern the totality of its territories as her armies withdrew, to the relief of many diplomats, who wouldn’t have fancied enforcing their words if Paris’ messengers changed their tune. On the terrain, the consequences were far more important: the sizeable Italian minority of the Swiss Republic was devastated, Switzerland itself was more and more forced to side with the French on every decision of importance, Bavaria grew fiercely neutral, and Hungary-Austria turned against its gaze east, watching carefully for any sign the Russians were trying to profit from the situation.

It was in these circumstances that the first international naval conference opened in 1913...
 

Israel_Dan the Man

Oooh, this naval conference is going to be interesting! And if it is anything like the OTL 1922 naval treaty, it’s gonna piss off a few countries.

Also, how is Oman doing? Will we get a chapter on them?
 
Antony444

Antony444

Israel_Dan the Man said:
Oooh, this naval conference is going to be interesting! And if it is anything like the OTL 1922 naval treaty, it’s gonna piss off a few countries.

Also, how is Oman doing? Will we get a chapter on them?
Click to expand...
Oh I think it is going to anger more than 'a few', my dear reader...

Have not decided for now if Oman will get a chapter soon. In general, they're busy reorganising their economy, since they've lost their overseas possessions and must now adapt in a theatre where neither the French nor the Ethiopians have many reasons to love them.

Azureora said:
Huh, guess the Swiss took on the debt. I suppose their paying it back by yearly installments?
Click to expand...
They do. Though it's going to take a while before it ends...of course France is not particularly interested in hammering them financially, so it's relatively reasonable.
 

Sébastien

I don't really understand the position of Bavaria, they know neutrality have costed them much, why would they return to it? Isn't that the definition of madness? Well, I suppose the neighborhood have changed around but truly I don't think it will end well.
I suppose ITTL countries are lucky they won't have to manage the equivalent of a OTL '29 (save the Swiss but they should be happy to still be more or less independent after this latest fiasco) The good news in this mess is that a lot of Italian insurgents have been killed, that should help in the former North Italy and actual Tuscany, no?
Does the Serbs are sweating a bit? AH might still decide that to have such a state in his backyard is dangerous in case of war with the Russians, after all, chaos would be a ladder for the Anarchists.
Btw, in OTL 1920-1929, there was so many conferences, all of them were trying to fix the mess of the WW I. The context isn't really the same here, just with France and Russia so much stronger and the others still affected by the Great War... For one, I don't see anyone wishing to change the monetary system so soon after the mess of Switzerland, the Turk aren't fighting Greece, in fact, the Ottoman are still kicking (relatively speaking) There is no "League of Nations" either... it doesn't seems like international cooperation is advanced but that might be an error from my part.
 

Sébastien

Yeah, I never understood that move, I mean with the Maginot Line, either France or Germany would have invaded Belgium at one point or another. Sure, nowadays, a lot of people laughed about the Maginot Line but I visited it and let me tell you that it was solid work, a pity the commanders (I put both the politics and the high-ranked military in the same bag) were idiots! But without knowing France would sucked that much, it should have been obvious Germany would be forced to go around the defensive line. Well, that's my understanding but I ain't a general of any army (I suppose video game doesn't count?)

Here Bavaria was given territory from Saxony when quite frankly, they did nothing for it. At least Westphalia fight side by side with France, they more or less earned their gains, Bavaria not so much. Bavaria just offered itself as the best target for Saxony. Sure, France and Westphalia don't want a too strong Saxony but if they just reconquered their lands lost to Bavaria... Well, that's a lot of supposition, I must admit but even a third-rated populist will used the "Make Saxony Great Again" card (if this slogan make you think of somebody else, this is pure coincidence)
 

fhaessig

Sébastien said:
Yeah, I never understood that move, I mean with the Maginot Line, either France or Germany would have invaded Belgium at one point or another. Sure, nowadays, a lot of people laughed about the Maginot Line but I visited it and let me tell you that it was solid work, a pity the commanders (I put both the politics and the high-ranked military in the same bag) were idiots! But without knowing France would sucked that much, it should have been obvious Germany would be forced to go around the defensive line. Well, that's my understanding but I ain't a general of any army (I suppose video game doesn't count?)
Click to expand...

1) Maginot line protects France from German attack, not Germany from French attack. You're thinking Siegfried line for the 2nd part. Which was much less substantial, even if the French 1940 GHQ thought it was much more imposing than it really was.

2) After WWI (ie after Maginot line was conceived), France was thinking in terms of a defensive war, not an offensive one. SO attacks into Germany was not in the plans for at least the first 2 years of the war, while blocks was supposed to destroy German industry.

3) Getting the German attack in a known, prepared area, away from French industrial heartland was part of the strategic thinking of using the Maginot line. At least after Belgium retired from Alliance with France; prior, Belgium was supposed to have fortifications covering the border with Germany also (see Eben Emael).
 
Antony444

Antony444

To have a Battleship (Naval affairs 1913)


Maybe there had been a small possibility of diplomatic relationships becoming more cordial between Imperial China and the nations of the Central Alliance after Calcutta. Unfortunately for the cause of peace, diplomats and observers were prompt to advise their supervisors this scenario was becoming less and less likely as each month passed.

Before the ink was dry on the peace treaty, Empress Ren had already ordered her Admirals to work on a new ambitious naval plan of rearmament. The menace of the false-pretenders of the North had been reduced to nothingness and Tibet and Vietnam had not the armies to threaten the Celestial Throne in any conventional conflict. Bengal and Russia still did, but for the time being there was no reason the troops of the Chuan Dynasty had to be concerned about these foreigners. They didn’t own any land the Chinese Empire considered to be part of its legitimate possessions.

The same couldn’t be said about the UPNG and the rest of those nations the Empress’ predecessor had once called ‘allies’. At the very least, Taiwan belonged to them, and it was evident California would not relinquish its claims without an amphibious invasion.

Since the warships of the Alliance outnumbered largely those of China, a new program of naval armament was indeed required. And to erase the shame of not having been capable to defeat their enemies on the seas in the last conflict, the sailors were ready to tolerate a lot of iron-fisted discipline and sacrifices as long as they were able to claim their revenge.

The Chinese Navy immediately began to decommission old units at the end of their civil war, but this temporary decrease was more than compensated by the arrival of new submarines, cruisers, escorts and supply hulls. And it was only going to increase. In 1920, it was the will of the Empress that her navy was ten battleships strong, and by mid-1913, all signs tended to support that the shipyard workers, the naval architects and the sailors were going to be successful in following this schedule. Assuming there was no war or major catastrophes striking the construction sites, Imperial China was going to be the fourth most powerful naval power in seven years, only surpassed by France, England and Russia.

Obviously, this was not something the decision-makers of the UPNG and their Admirals enjoyed being told. The naval blockade they had tried against the Chinese in the last war had been totally unable to prevent the collapse of the Wu dynasty, and ultimately – even if few politicians admitted in public – their intervention had been more counter-productive than anything else. And now they learned that if there was a new war after 1919, their warships would be totally unable to blockade the Chinese coast. By 1913, the UPNG had finished its build-up to arrive at a nominal active strength of seven battleships and twenty cruisers, with bigger guns, better armour and improved speed. California had three more battleships, Peru and Brunei had one each that they had bought from Granadan shipyards. But with warships converted or replaced one by one to accept oil as their fuel, there was little money to increase further the navy’s size. Not without cutting the funding of the army, at any rate.

The easiest solution would have been to destroy this large fleet before completion. But the UPNG had no popular support for this course of action anymore. The intervention in the Chinese civil war had been a disaster from a propaganda viewpoint. Jumping into a new era of troubles was something guaranteed to cost the party which authorised it a massive electoral defeat.

On the other hand, many Admirals and senior Captains were prompt to tell their supporters and friends that the build-up of the Chinese Navy was not something there were the only one to be worried about. Bengal and Russia were following with attention the Chinese classes of cruisers and destroyers being commissioned. For the moment, everybody was only watching of course. But there was no denying certain disarmament projects had already been cancelled and several industrial decisions were in the process of being reversed.

As a result, few rulers were surprised when on the nineteenth of July, the UPNG proposed to host a grand naval conference in the city of Panama to, in their own words, ‘avoid a new race of armaments which would undoubtedly lead the world into a new Great War’. And to avoid being seen as a simple puppet-show of the Central Alliance, the participation of Bengal, the Ottomans and Satsuma Japan had been already confirmed – the participation of the latter was very awkward as the Granadans were among the last protectors of the Tokugawa remnants. To these three nations, one also had to add the UPNG – obviously – California, the Peruvian Republic, the Brunei Sultanate and the two half-allies of the Kingdom of Denmark and the Republic of the Carolinas.

For most of August, it seemed to be the move was going to be the diplomatic coup everyone wanted as Russians, Chileans and Greeks joined the list of participants. Hungary-Austria and Ireland approved a few days later too. But the enthusiasm rapidly died as neither the French nor the English rulers showed any sign they were going to send more than the official military representative and two or three secondary diplomats. And those two nations had to be on their side. France had thirty battleships in active service, and was preparing to replace four of the oldest with the brand-new Anvers-class. England had eight active battleships and a massive fleet of cruisers. A naval conference without the two largest fleets would be a fiasco.

And of course the official correspondence sent to the Chinese court was returned unopened. Whether the diplomats managed to convince their counterparts of Paris and London with their silver tongues or not, it was evident it would need, far, far more to manage to bring a Chinese to the naval conference...



Battleships in active service by 1913:

UPNG: 7

California: 3

Peruvian Republic: 1

Brunei Sultanate: 1

Imperial China: 3 (plan to have 10 by 1920)

Satsuma Japan: 4

Kingdom of Bengal: 4

Republic of the Cape: 1

Holy Empire of Spain: 4

Chilean Republic: 2

Directorate of Florida: 3

Republic of the Carolinas: 3

Ottoman Empire: 2

Kingdom of Greece: 1

Republic of Hungary-Austria: 3

Kingdom of Denmark: 2

Republic of Ireland: 1

Kingdom of England: 8

Empire of Russia: 8

Empire of France: 30
 

Israel_Dan the Man

Antony444 said:
To have a Battleship (Naval affairs 1913)


Maybe there had been a small possibility of diplomatic relationships becoming more cordial between Imperial China and the nations of the Central Alliance after Calcutta. Unfortunately for the cause of peace, diplomats and observers were prompt to advise their supervisors this scenario was becoming less and less likely as each month passed.

Before the ink was dry on the peace treaty, Empress Ren had already ordered her Admirals to work on a new ambitious naval plan of rearmament. The menace of the false-pretenders of the North had been reduced to nothingness and Tibet and Vietnam had not the armies to threaten the Celestial Throne in any conventional conflict. Bengal and Russia still did, but for the time being there was no reason the troops of the Chuan Dynasty had to be concerned about these foreigners. They didn’t own any land the Chinese Empire considered to be part of its legitimate possessions.

The same couldn’t be said about the UPNG and the rest of those nations the Empress’ predecessor had once called ‘allies’. At the very least, Taiwan belonged to them, and it was evident California would not relinquish its claims without an amphibious invasion.

Since the warships of the Alliance outnumbered largely those of China, a new program of naval armament was indeed required. And to erase the shame of not having been capable to defeat their enemies on the seas in the last conflict, the sailors were ready to tolerate a lot of iron-fisted discipline and sacrifices as long as they were able to claim their revenge.

The Chinese Navy immediately began to decommission old units at the end of their civil war, but this temporary decrease was more than compensated by the arrival of new submarines, cruisers, escorts and supply hulls. And it was only going to increase. In 1920, it was the will of the Empress that her navy was ten battleships strong, and by mid-1913, all signs tended to support that the shipyard workers, the naval architects and the sailors were going to be successful in following this schedule. Assuming there was no war or major catastrophes striking the construction sites, Imperial China was going to be the fourth most powerful naval power in seven years, only surpassed by France, England and Russia.

Obviously, this was not something the decision-makers of the UPNG and their Admirals enjoyed being told. The naval blockade they had tried against the Chinese in the last war had been totally unable to prevent the collapse of the Wu dynasty, and ultimately – even if few politicians admitted in public – their intervention had been more counter-productive than anything else. And now they learned that if there was a new war after 1919, their warships would be totally unable to blockade the Chinese coast. By 1913, the UPNG had finished its build-up to arrive at a nominal active strength of seven battleships and twenty cruisers, with bigger guns, better armour and improved speed. California had three more battleships, Peru and Brunei had one each that they had bought from Granadan shipyards. But with warships converted or replaced one by one to accept oil as their fuel, there was little money to increase further the navy’s size. Not without cutting the funding of the army, at any rate.

The easiest solution would have been to destroy this large fleet before completion. But the UPNG had no popular support for this course of action anymore. The intervention in the Chinese civil war had been a disaster from a propaganda viewpoint. Jumping into a new era of troubles was something guaranteed to cost the party which authorised it a massive electoral defeat.

On the other hand, many Admirals and senior Captains were prompt to tell their supporters and friends that the build-up of the Chinese Navy was not something there were the only one to be worried about. Bengal and Russia were following with attention the Chinese classes of cruisers and destroyers being commissioned. For the moment, everybody was only watching of course. But there was no denying certain disarmament projects had already been cancelled and several industrial decisions were in the process of being reversed.

As a result, few rulers were surprised when on the nineteenth of July, the UPNG proposed to host a grand naval conference in the city of Panama to, in their own words, ‘avoid a new race of armaments which would undoubtedly lead the world into a new Great War’. And to avoid being seen as a simple puppet-show of the Central Alliance, the participation of Bengal, the Ottomans and Satsuma Japan had been already confirmed – the participation of the latter was very awkward as the Granadans were among the last protectors of the Tokugawa remnants. To these three nations, one also had to add the UPNG – obviously – California, the Peruvian Republic, the Brunei Sultanate and the two half-allies of the Kingdom of Denmark and the Republic of the Carolinas.

For most of August, it seemed to be the move was going to be the diplomatic coup everyone wanted as Russians, Chileans and Greeks joined the list of participants. Hungary-Austria and Ireland approved a few days later too. But the enthusiasm rapidly died as neither the French nor the English rulers showed any sign they were going to send more than the official military representative and two or three secondary diplomats. And those two nations had to be on their side. France had thirty battleships in active service, and was preparing to replace four of the oldest with the brand-new Anvers-class. England had eight active battleships and a massive fleet of cruisers. A naval conference without the two largest fleets would be a fiasco.

And of course the official correspondence sent to the Chinese court was returned unopened. Whether the diplomats managed to convince their counterparts of Paris and London with their silver tongues or not, it was evident it would need, far, far more to manage to bring a Chinese to the naval conference...



Battleships in active service by 1913:

UPNG: 7

California: 3

Peruvian Republic: 1

Brunei Sultanate: 1

Imperial China: 3 (plan to have 10 by 1920)

Satsuma Japan: 4

Kingdom of Bengal: 4

Republic of the Cape: 1

Holy Empire of Spain: 4

Chilean Republic: 2

Directorate of Florida: 3

Republic of the Carolinas: 3

Ottoman Empire: 2

Kingdom of Greece: 1

Republic of Hungary-Austria: 3

Kingdom of Denmark: 2

Republic of Ireland: 1

Kingdom of England: 8

Empire of Russia: 8

Empire of France: 30
Click to expand...
That face when it seems like the amount of battleships each nation has is fair, only to scroll to the bottom and see that France has 30.
This is going to be a very interesting (and probably unfair and lopsided) treaty.
I sense the Carolinas and Florida may use it as an excuse to have a squabble.
I'm surprised Greece even has one battleship.
Great chapter as usual.
 
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