In this country , it is good to kill an admiral from time to time

Guys, while I respect you dedication to the Gate, this is not the thread for this. We are in the 'Before 1900' category. I kindly suggest to create another thread in the 'Fandom' or any other section which might fit. I gave the permission to one of my readers to use some of the material stocked here, but it's not to make a debate on a pseudo-magical gate allowing different dimensions to interact with each other.
Bests,
 
Guys, while I respect you dedication to the Gate, this is not the thread for this. We are in the 'Before 1900' category. I kindly suggest to create another thread in the 'Fandom' or any other section which might fit. I gave the permission to one of my readers to use some of the material stocked here, but it's not to make a debate on a pseudo-magical gate allowing different dimensions to interact with each other.
Bests,
You're right, my apologies.
 
Hey Antony, I'm curious, what were the population of all the German states before the war? I know Saxony's was 19 million, but what about Bavaria, Westphalia, and Dutch Germany?
 
Hey Antony, I'm curious, what were the population of all the German states before the war? I know Saxony's was 19 million, but what about Bavaria, Westphalia, and Dutch Germany?

Strangely enough, I have been unable to find the figures...I've probably forgotten to make a Germany update. Oops.
Hem...the first two would have inferior population totals (and the Great War really didn't help) and Westphalia may have been more in the vicinity of 15 million? That's guessing numbers on the spot, I will have to consult notes and historical factors to really give TTL numbers.
 
Strangely enough, I have been unable to find the figures...I've probably forgotten to make a Germany update. Oops.
Hem...the first two would have inferior population totals (and the Great War really didn't help) and Westphalia may have been more in the vicinity of 15 million? That's guessing numbers on the spot, I will have to consult notes and historical factors to really give TTL numbers.
Thanks anyways.
 
Cycles of Hatred (the Congress of Calcutta 1912)


The diplomatic delegations of the Chinese Empire and the Central Alliance didn’t arrive to Calcutta with love and a long desire of peace in their hearts.

On paper, it made little sense. The lists of casualties of the forces of Guangzhou were not small, but most of them had been suffered against the Wu in the campaign northwards. The few thousands sailors of the Chuan Navy who had perished against UPNG and California battleships shouldn’t have mattered when cold and rational heads met at the same table.

Alas, the scars of the Great War ran deep, and the Chinese in particular had never forgotten the betrayal at the last hour of the Central Alliance; a coalition they had joined in good faith and which had backstabbed them when the shares of the spoils were about to be divided.

The UPNG diplomats and the other delegates, on the other hand, were utterly furious most of their governments were in the process of collapsing, if new elections hadn’t already ejected them and their bosses from power. They had promised their electorates the ‘Yellow Peril’ would be manageable and easily defeated; not fulfilling their promises was leading a lot of hasty retirements. Plus many countries were now genuinely afraid about the colossus rising from the ashes of the War of Chinese Reunification. Either the Wu Dynasty or the Chuan Dynasty had been manageable on their own; the new Chinese Empire taking shape was not. It was not the contested borders unilaterally annexed by the Russians which were going to change something in the rapport of strength.

The Chinese Empire had by 1912 a population over 370 million inhabitants, and an army which had proven both numerous and knowledgeable in logistics, communications, artillery and infantry tactics. It didn’t matter that for the last decades Chuan China had been more reacting to aggressions to its perceived interests than attacking foreigners; the powerbrokers of the Central Alliance were terrified Empress Ren was going to unleash her armies against Vietnam and Tibet. These invasions would of course be realised at the same time a massive naval build-up occurred on the Chinese coasts, a prelude to the largest amphibious assault in history: the conquest of Taiwan, the Philippines and the Eastern Indies, including Brunei.

Most of these ideas were, needless to say, complete nonsense. None of the Generals and Admirals had any interest provoking a new World War, which was exactly what moving in the direction of the former Batavian Kingdom would likely succeed at. Taiwan, yes, it was considered a Chinese province. A lot of the aggressive officers were fond of the idea of annexing the Philippines, though they were as many opponents to this idea as they were supporters. A lot of people in the Alliance weren’t able to make the difference. While the UPNG and Californian elements recognised their Chinese counterparts were not ten metres-tall giant spitting flames who devoured children for breakfast, Brunei and Vietnam were leading the pack of rumour-believers. The fact the latter had not participated to the war for evident reasons did not prevent it from having its voice heard.

As a result, the Congress of Calcutta, despite being more a diplomatic nicety than a true necessity as everyone knew how it was going to end, only contributed to kill the idea of some genuine return to peace on both sides. The Bengali guards assigned to protect the delegations were good, but when diplomats came to blow against each other, intervention often came too late. A Chinese assistant who had been offered a bottle of expensive champagne from one of his Bengali partners received a couple of punches when he refused to let the lips of a Brunei noble touch the alcoholic liquid. Two members of the Vietnamese observers were poisoned with some combination of snake venom. One survived, the other did not. There were fist fights, insults and vicious whispers. Certain adventurers were found in the beds of married women while their husbands played the cutthroat nation’s emissary.

From January to May 1912 the Congress played out. For five months scandals, quarrels and feuds fed the pages of the local and international newspapers. Most of the minor republics and kingdoms having sent observers to the Congress were aghast at the scenes, and even more worried that neither Russia nor France happened to intervene seriously to restrain the demands and the ambitions of the reunited Chinese Empire.

In these circumstances, the absence of surprise was general when each side declared they would not pay a single coin of reparations to their enemies. Tempers were running hot, and it was clear that had the Alliance possessed the troops to invade China, or the Chinese Navy possessed the battleships to sink the Alliance fleet, the war could have resumed within the year.

But it was not the case. Northern China, exhausted by civil wars, warlord ill-governance, the legacy of the Great War, starvation and foreign occupation, would need a massive rebuilding effort before it could be considered a third as profitable as the provinces of the South. The Chinese Navy could not be expanded to the Central Alliance in mere months, and the Army had to stop and recover from this large campaign.

The Central Alliance had to reassure its electors (for the UPNG and California) and its taxpayers the times of hardship were at an end, although Taiwan would stay protected by a sizeable garrison and fleet.

Territorially, the reunification of Imperial China was acknowledged, but little else of importance was agreed upon.

It was evident to all that the Great War had not solved many of the dilemmas of the nineteenth century. And soon the world may have a second one, if many issues continued to be solved by violence and not the method of debate...
 
So I’m guessing Vietnam is now in the Central Alliance?

Officially no, since the Central Alliance has no wish to engage in a massive ground war they would lose with a 99% guarantee.
But officiously, Vietnam is severely indebted to the UPNG, California and all, and has not much love for China (which annexed its northern provinces during the Great War). Should they have to 'choose', they would be incorporated into the Alliance immediately.
 
Officially no, since the Central Alliance has no wish to engage in a massive ground war they would lose with a 99% guarantee.
But officiously, Vietnam is severely indebted to the UPNG, California and all, and has not much love for China (which annexed its northern provinces during the Great War). Should they have to 'choose', they would be incorporated into the Alliance immediately.
I bet they will officially join it pretty soon, especially since it is the only way for their economy to grow, not to mention China will only get stronger over time.
 
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Man, it’s rough bordering a resurgent China. You can bet your bottom dollar that their going to invade when the West is occupied with a European conflict.
 
Man, it’s rough bordering a resurgent China. You can bet your bottom dollar that their going to invade when the West is occupied with a European conflict.

I'm sure that other countries have thought so about the neighbour-Great Power on the other side of the frontier...Mexico-US relationship comes to mind.
 
1. I wonder what the next chapter will be on now that the war is over. Hopefully it will be from 1911 to 1920 so we can see the events of the next decade.
2. Not to bother you but would it be possible for you to show a unified China map in the next update?
3. Would it be possible for you to add a Florida-Carolina war as well as a Ghurkha-Hindustan war in the next update(s)? I wanna see the Ghurkhas expand, especially since no one cares if they annex Hindustan. Also, Florida needs to be destroyed once and for all.
 
Hi Antony,

I’ve just caught up with this great TL. Detailed and world-spanning updates on such a long time period (already more than two centuries) are amazing.

I’ve got a few questions, which popped as I read the whole TL.
  • At one point, you did a worldwide update on a specific topic (naval development just before the great war) rather than the usual ones focusing on a restraint geographical zone but mentioning several different topics. Do you plan more of those? I would love to read more about subjects like planes, railroads development, transatlantic liners, or, later, computers (will we see something like a “3615 histoirealternative”?) and space race (Mars would look great in blue).
  • Speaking of railroads, you mentioned the Orient Express. What path does it take? Is it crossing through anarchist Serbia? Has it been extended in the east? (A railroad going from metropolitan France to the Persian Gulf would nicely cut travel time to French India.)
  • Is there anything ITTL comparable to OTL naval treaties, or are we likely to see an impressive naval arms race between the Great Powers?
  • A few islands are missing on the basemap you use (e.g.: St Helena and Clipperton). Could you make a little recap of which country holds what in the Pacific and the Atlantic?
  • About overseas possessions, how is Antarctica exploration progressing? Has anyone already laid claims on (part of) the continent?
  • In some of your former posts, you showed the flags of some of TTL countries. For those of them which survived to the current year, I noted France, the Papal States, (New?) Virginia, Florida, the Carolinas, the UPNG, Hungary-Austria and Australasia (and maybe England, but I believe the phoenix flag was republican). Have you already decided the ones for the other nations (Golden Republic, California, …)?
  • Speaking of the American west coast: I don’t remember any update about the whole mainland North America since the end of the Great War (even if the French Empire was covered in general terms, as the oversea adventures of the Carolinas). Did I miss something, or have those updates met the same fate as those about Germany (and maybe also the Arabian Peninsula)? Did the French use the 1906 earthquake in Aquarelle to solidify their presence in the Golden Republic? (And is there any possibility for said Golden Republic to become part of the French Empire? After all, they made secession from Louisiana, which itself made secession from France; so the French might have a claim.)
  • Still on a the same continent, but a bit further south: how much is France willing to get Guyana back? Not enough to start an offensive against the whole Central Alliance, it appears, otherwise they would probably have acted when said alliance was busy sending lots of ships far away in China. But would they send a declaration of war the day after a hypothetical breakup between the UPNG and the other members, or do they consider the place so worthless, damaged by the war and/or firmly in the grip of the UPNG that they would even hesitate to accept it if the Granadans were suddenly offering it back?
  • Was there really that many people up this far north in what would be Canada OTL that it was worth creating the (state? province? duchy?) of Cartier? I can’t help but visualize a capital city (did you already give it a name?) of less than a thousand inhabitants, counting the reindeer, bears and occasional lynxes. Note that if such a situation was to continue up to the early 21st century, it would create an ideal setting for both horror and comedy movies.
  • With the 20th century progressing, would you be kind enough to provide us with a few updates about changes in society? Will three empresses at the head of three of the most powerful countries ITTL (if not the three most powerful countries) have an impact on women’s rights? What about the Natives? If I remember correctly, last time I read about them in French North America, things were not so bad in the north, but those Natives who took part in Louisianan rebellion ended in a very dire situation.
Thanks again for this great TL (and sorry for the wall of text).
 
Hi Antony,

I’ve just caught up with this great TL. Detailed and world-spanning updates on such a long time period (already more than two centuries) are amazing.

I’ve got a few questions, which popped as I read the whole TL.
  • At one point, you did a worldwide update on a specific topic (naval development just before the great war) rather than the usual ones focusing on a restraint geographical zone but mentioning several different topics. Do you plan more of those? I would love to read more about subjects like planes, railroads development, transatlantic liners, or, later, computers (will we see something like a “3615 histoirealternative”?) and space race (Mars would look great in blue).
  • Speaking of railroads, you mentioned the Orient Express. What path does it take? Is it crossing through anarchist Serbia? Has it been extended in the east? (A railroad going from metropolitan France to the Persian Gulf would nicely cut travel time to French India.)
  • Is there anything ITTL comparable to OTL naval treaties, or are we likely to see an impressive naval arms race between the Great Powers?
  • A few islands are missing on the basemap you use (e.g.: St Helena and Clipperton). Could you make a little recap of which country holds what in the Pacific and the Atlantic?
  • About overseas possessions, how is Antarctica exploration progressing? Has anyone already laid claims on (part of) the continent?
  • In some of your former posts, you showed the flags of some of TTL countries. For those of them which survived to the current year, I noted France, the Papal States, (New?) Virginia, Florida, the Carolinas, the UPNG, Hungary-Austria and Australasia (and maybe England, but I believe the phoenix flag was republican). Have you already decided the ones for the other nations (Golden Republic, California, …)?
  • Speaking of the American west coast: I don’t remember any update about the whole mainland North America since the end of the Great War (even if the French Empire was covered in general terms, as the oversea adventures of the Carolinas). Did I miss something, or have those updates met the same fate as those about Germany (and maybe also the Arabian Peninsula)? Did the French use the 1906 earthquake in Aquarelle to solidify their presence in the Golden Republic? (And is there any possibility for said Golden Republic to become part of the French Empire? After all, they made secession from Louisiana, which itself made secession from France; so the French might have a claim.)
  • Still on a the same continent, but a bit further south: how much is France willing to get Guyana back? Not enough to start an offensive against the whole Central Alliance, it appears, otherwise they would probably have acted when said alliance was busy sending lots of ships far away in China. But would they send a declaration of war the day after a hypothetical breakup between the UPNG and the other members, or do they consider the place so worthless, damaged by the war and/or firmly in the grip of the UPNG that they would even hesitate to accept it if the Granadans were suddenly offering it back?
  • Was there really that many people up this far north in what would be Canada OTL that it was worth creating the (state? province? duchy?) of Cartier? I can’t help but visualize a capital city (did you already give it a name?) of less than a thousand inhabitants, counting the reindeer, bears and occasional lynxes. Note that if such a situation was to continue up to the early 21st century, it would create an ideal setting for both horror and comedy movies.
  • With the 20th century progressing, would you be kind enough to provide us with a few updates about changes in society? Will three empresses at the head of three of the most powerful countries ITTL (if not the three most powerful countries) have an impact on women’s rights? What about the Natives? If I remember correctly, last time I read about them in French North America, things were not so bad in the north, but those Natives who took part in Louisianan rebellion ended in a very dire situation.
Thanks again for this great TL (and sorry for the wall of text).

Don't expect me to answer walls of text like these every day...(sigh)...here we go...

1) I've not prepared for the moment the decade ahead, but sure a general naval/military update is a possibility.

2) The Orient Express was orginally going through Serbia, yes. Now that the Great War is over...well, there may be other options decided.

3) For the present time, no. Each side tried to build as many battleships as it could support with the big armies during the Great War, and so far, as the Chinese-Alliance conflict has proved, naval treaties aren't exactly to the order of the day.

4) I'm sure these missing islands are going to change history...:rolleyes: in the Atlantic France hold the small islands, by virtue of them having total naval supremacy in the theatre.

5) There have been some exploration moves from France and other countries, but so far not one nation have done so much to be able to claim Antarctica...

6) Err...not really, no. I have been busy with other stories/timelines...

7) You're right, I didn't make a specific update, something that will have to be rectified for French North America.

8) Not very much. Guyana has been rather throughly devastated, and convincing settlers to come back (assuming the UPNG could be expelled without a major war) is not going to be a priority of the Empress or the government in general. Paris' influential men and women are far more likely to order an invasion of Brazil. There would be less military opposition and far more potential in territorial gains and natural resources.

9) There was some problems with two French companies involved in the fur trade in the past, and some administrators back in France wanted to squeeze some money...and a new province was created. For reasons which have everything to do with politics, even the ending of some questionable hunting and trade practises in the region have been unable to end the existence of the province.

10) You don't want much, do you? :p
 
Just a temporary map to show the frontiers of 1912 after the War of Chinese Reunification.

World map 1912.png
 
The Legacy of the Trenches (Germany 1902-1912)



For Central Europe and more precisely the German-speaking populations, the Great War resulted in a lot of changes. Most of them were deeply unpleasant for the local populations who had supported the European Union.

Dutch Germany was no more. The realm had been more an artificial nation as France and its allies weren’t eager to swallow towns with tens of thousands of insurgents before the world was set in fire. But what was true before the Great War wasn’t after the fact. The Entente troops had wiped out an incredibly number of rebels and irregular troops, and the number of Dutch German killed for treasonous plots, sabotages and anti-Entente actions increased a lot year after year. Many public offenders were exiled overseas, where they would join the ranks of the Alliance or other discontents.

But for the Germans, this didn’t change the fact that the Entente had won and the Union had lost. Saxony, once a mighty colossus boasting it was reunify everything between the Rhine and the Oder under its banner, was now of a shadow of itself. By 1902, the newly formed Republic of Saxony had 10 million inhabitants and was utterly bankrupt.

The 1900s were a particular dark time for the Saxons. While they still had relationships with Poland, they were now surrounded by larger and hostile powers. Bavaria especially had several years to experience what the ‘Saxon benevolence’ truly meant, and it was not an equal-to-equal relationship, more like master-servant.

Saxony was ruined, its economy barely sufficient to cover the costs of rebuilding and housing the refugees who had been expelled from the lands annexed by their neighbours. Unemployment was rife, food riots were not an uncommon sight, and political coups happened so often the foreign newspapers stopped commenting it with anything resembling surprise.

From 1901 to 1907, Saxony went through two extremely short-lived monarchic restorations, three different Republican constitutions and it was rumoured that one of the many usurpers was the incognito disgraced Emperor. This unruly period only ended when a former Colonel overthrew the last unpopular regime and proclaimed the Dominion of Saxony. The officer declared himself Protector of the Dominion, and many theoretical laws concerning freedom of press and assembly were immediately declared null and void. The reign of the self-proclaimed Protector Friedrich von Sachsen had begun.

South of it, the Kingdom of Bavaria and its 14 million inhabitants were governed by Maximillian III ‘the Paranoiac’. After Saxony launched a surprise attack and years of humiliation, the new monarch of Southern Germany had absolutely zero trust in Saxony and Hungary-Austria, and began to orient his country towards a pro-western course. The Bavarians definitely approved. While trade connections were still important with the rest of Central Europe, the representatives of Regensburg had many times to report the time where the trade tariffs were low belonged to a long-gone era. Bavaria had invested in a brand-new army and many brand-new airplanes by 1910. Neutrality had been tried and hadn’t worked. Now Munich and its loyal subjects would ensure their protection by force of arms and potential invaders would be received with shells and bullets.

This strategy of course demanded the support of Paris, as the frontier between Bavaria and Westphalia had been completely devastated by the terrible years of trench warfare. Fortunately for the treasury of poor Bavaria, Empress Charlotte agreed. France had fought the Saxons and the Union in Germany, and it had spared the French frontier territories. The Bavarians could be useful keeping the Saxons and the Dual-Republic in check if the divisions of the Rhine needed to mobilise.

Of course, the monumental damage done to Germany didn’t heal in a single day or even in a year. There had been so many landmines hidden, so many shells fired, so many waste of the horrors of industrial warfare, that even with the support of France, the demining and salvage operations would continue for the next decade. As photos revealed the scale of the devastation, dark-themed artists outnumbered for a few years everything else. The no-man’s land, the craters, the desolations...everything was shredded and pulverised in the war-torn areas.

In the middle of this disaster, Westphalia emerged the winner. Now under the rule of Grand-Duke Albrecht IV, the state under French protection had proven its loyalty to the Entente and managed to save most of its most valuable industry. By 1903 and the divide was complete, Westphalia had 27 million citizens and the parliamentary monarchic-duchy shield-nation was poised to become the dominant force in German lands. It had been granted the access to the North it had wanted for decades, boosting its economy as 1910 arrived, and it had only Denmark and Saxony as potentially hostile neighbours.

The Free City of Amsterdam, Major Koen van Casteel and its six hundred thousand inhabitants remained as complex oddity in this new world. No one, including the Entente and the survivors of the Alliance, was exactly sure to do about them. Yet pragmatism and real-life concerns rapidly ensured a role was found for it. The extremely liberal taxation and the freedom granted by the lax laws ensured rapidly the ‘Northern Venice’ became a neutral ground where all other Empires and kingdoms could meet each other without starting diplomatic incidents. Human nature being what it was, fiscal evasions increased massively in Amsterdam’s direction, and all sort of gambling and exotic establishments opened between 1905 and 1912.

Still, stone by stone, the heavy legacy of the era began to be erased from the fields and the forests, if not from the memories and the hearts.

But not far from these countries, another crisis was brewing. And it was going to begin in Switzerland.
 
Yeah, I knew it would be bad and it is worse. As for Munich, I suppose their new motto can be resume as "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!" The Saxons should stay clear of Bavaria, a very very wide berth. Westphalia show why working with France is a LOT more rewarding than against. Still, I hope Russia won't see Central Europe as a too juicy piece to ignore. Well, they should have enough to digest for the moment. I mean, they should probably prepare for the revenge of China.

Finally, Switzerland again? Poor swiss, this TL isn't kind with them. Now, I doubt it's the Collectivists, not again, not after the last fiasco... Ah! I bet it will be an ethnic disaster, between those are french speaking, german or italien. Yeah, after the Great War, I can believe easily that there is... tensions? Let's go with that word.
 
Yeah, I knew it would be bad and it is worse. As for Munich, I suppose their new motto can be resume as "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!" The Saxons should stay clear of Bavaria, a very very wide berth. Westphalia show why working with France is a LOT more rewarding than against. Still, I hope Russia won't see Central Europe as a too juicy piece to ignore. Well, they should have enough to digest for the moment. I mean, they should probably prepare for the revenge of China.

Finally, Switzerland again? Poor swiss, this TL isn't kind with them. Now, I doubt it's the Collectivists, not again, not after the last fiasco... Ah! I bet it will be an ethnic disaster, between those are french speaking, german or italien. Yeah, after the Great War, I can believe easily that there is... tensions? Let's go with that word.

Yep, the Bavarians have learned their lesson...no Saxon will be trusted for the rest of the century. And if one Saxon soldier tries to cross the frontier in arms, God help him...

It's sure OTL is a Switzerland-wank in comparison. ;)
 
1. A chapter posted on a day other than the weekend? The world must be ending!
2. Will Bavaria ever consider uniting with Westphalia? France is already getting control over it, so it'd be one united puppet. France certainly would see this as an absolute win!
3. Why doesn't England take Amsterdam? It's not like the city's significant enough to endanger France. Related to that, how is the part of Holland that England owns doing (and how many people do they have)?
4. Related to the above, will England ever get even 1 impressive colony (great, you made me feel bad for the British Empire, thanks a lot XD).
5. Perhaps Switzerland gets partitioned? The German parts go to Westphalia, and the French and Italian parts go to France (France has 13 million Italians, a few hundred thousand more won't change anything).
 
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