Greek Civil War 1949-1950 Europe's Korean War

Gaúcho Maldito

Banned
EasternRomanEmpire said:
Because he's an idiot who refuses to support communist movements, ex. in China he refused to support the CCP in the Civil War.
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He wasn't being a idiot here. The USSR was in no position to fight the United States, that's why Stalin was being so cautious. The USSR would only achieve nuke parity with the Americans much later. Any war before that and the Americans could nuke blitz the Soviets in a any attrition war, and the Soviets were already suffering from all they lost during WW2.
 

DG Valdron

EasternRomanEmpire said:
Meanwhile the KKE sided with the USSR and he still refused to help. Tbh I think he did so because he didn't want to anger the West.
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Maybe. My own view is that Stalin didn't particularly want allies or fellow travellers, he wanted slaves. There was no one allowed in his tent who was not wearing his chains.
 
EasternRomanEmpire

EasternRomanEmpire

Gaúcho Maldito said:
He wasn't being a idiot here. The USSR was in no position to fight the United States, that's why Stalin was being so cautious. The USSR would only achieve nuke parity with the Americans much later. Any war before that and the Americans could nuke blitz the Soviets in a any attrition war, and the Soviets were already suffering from all they lost during WW2.
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Supporting communist rebels does not mean war with the US, the US is as afraid of the Red Army as the Soviets are afraid of the atomic bomb.
 
EasternRomanEmpire

EasternRomanEmpire

Sheridantank1996 said:
Wouldn’t Tito’s Yugoslav People’s Army Be more Directly Involve than the Soviet Army
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I was talking in the case of escapation which leads to war between the US and USSR, the Red Army is as scary to the US as the atomic bomb is to the Soviet Union.
ITTL Greek Civil War Yugoslavia and Soviet Union would only help the KKE materially, Tito intervening directly to save them would be suicide.
 
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nickmn

Sheridantank1996 said:
Well that’s My Scenario Comes in It wasn’t Suicide for CCP To Intervene in Korea
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Considering the superiority the Greek Army had in both material and manpower over the Communist forces, the only shot they would have to win would be Tito going all in with boots on the ground and for some reason all of the allies of the Greek government(both the UK and the USA) not intervening at all. I'd consider it beyond impossible.
Stalin has no reason to risk a war against the Western Allies just to place a communist government in Greece and Tito doesn't have the power to do so, considering the power disparity between Yugoslavia and the allies of Greece...
 

Sheridantank1996

nickmn said:
Considering the superiority the Greek Army had in both material and manpower over the Communist forces, the only shot they would have to win would be Tito going all in with boots on the ground and for some reason all of the allies of the Greek government(both the UK and the USA) not intervening at all. I'd consider it beyond impossible.
Stalin has no reason to risk a war against the Western Allies just to place a communist government in Greece and Tito doesn't have the power to do so, considering the power disparity between Yugoslavia and the allies of Greece...
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My Scenario isn’t that the Communists Win in fact it’s the Same Outcome as the OTL But the US. directly Intervenes With Troops US Marines and 82nd Airborne Probably and Also Tito Probably Put Boots on the Ground Also
 
EasternRomanEmpire

EasternRomanEmpire

Sheridantank1996 said:
My Scenario isn’t that the Communists Win in fact it’s the Same Outcome as the OTL But the US. directly Intervenes With Troops US Marines and 82nd Airborne Probably and Also Tito Probably Put Boots on the Ground Also
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Tito would only offer material support, he knows that intervening in Greece is suicide so in a TL where Yugoslav-Soviet split doesn't happen or is delayed the KKE will survive slightly longer before being crushed, it would be a morale boost for the West.
 

Sheridantank1996

EasternRomanEmpire said:
Tito would only offer material support, he knows that intervening in Greece is suicide so in a TL where Yugoslav-Soviet split doesn't happen or is delayed the KKE will survive slightly longer before being crushed, it would be a morale boost for the West.
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I Think in The Scenario Yugoslav-Soviet Split still Happens it's Secret Diplomatic in a way but this British Expeditionary Force and 2nd Marine Division and 82nd Airborne Division reach Macedonia and Northern Greece Mountains and Then the Tito Intervenes
 
EasternRomanEmpire

EasternRomanEmpire

Sheridantank1996 said:
I Think in The Scenario Yugoslav-Soviet Split still Happens it's Secret Diplomatic in a way but this British Expeditionary Force and 2nd Marine Division and 82nd Airborne Division reach Macedonia and Northern Greece Mountains and Then the Tito Intervenes
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It would be suicide for Tito to intervene, there is no way he can survive the US and UK coming after him.
 

Insane Ranter

Sheridantank1996 said:
So Based on i read the OTL The Greek Communists/Democratic Army of Greece Failed because the Yugoslav-Soviet Split so in this Scenario the Yugoslav-Soviet Split Never Happen Allowing the Greek Communists to Capture Athens
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The communist "failure" in Greece had more to do with the the British and then US and the large supply of arms and materials to the Kingdom of Greece.
In OTL Stalin was wary of pressing into Greece. He had agreed with Churchill in the percentages agreement and at Yalta over the situation in Greece. You either have to change those agreements I'm not sure how you would get Churchill to agree nor FDR later to more Soviet sphere of influence in Greece. Stalin also did not think that the USSR was ready to challenge the West in 1945-1946. Stalin was more concerned with consolidating the later Warsaw sphere of influence.

Tito is also going to have too behave differently to prevent the "Split". He already had the US-UK looking at him badly due to the attacks on the UK/US supply the tail end of WW2, Tito wanting territories from other Soviet sphere states, and not taking aid from the US in the Marshall plan. This is almost a Stalin isn't Stalin and Tito isn't Tito situation.

Pouring in of Aid from the USSR to Greece is going to have the West look at Stalin in a way that they can not trust Stalin in anyway after a reversal of previous agreements and discussions. You are going to get suggested reversals by the West on previous agreements that Stalin might not agree and push things into the Cold War faster and make things hot. Stalin for all the crazy things he did isn't stupid. He was happy for Greece to fall out of the Soviet sphere for things in his mind are more important.

Pouring of aid, men, and materials from Yugoslavia is going to get Washington and London ringing Moscow going WTF? Along with a please rein in Tito or we will. If the waves of assassins can't get Tito then the US/UK are going to intervene. Tito being scared of Greece invasions of Albania/Yugoslavia will be replaced with scared notions of the US/UK coming instead. I'm not sure Tito would want to press this. He has too much to loose. Yugoslavia needed the aid from the West and was one of the concessions for Yugoslavia to stop aiding the Communists in Greece. If Yugoslavia is full bore aiding the Greek Communists then the aid from the US isn't coming Tito knows this.
 

Sheridantank1996

Insane Ranter said:
The communist "failure" in Greece had more to do with the the British and then US and the large supply of arms and materials to the Kingdom of Greece.
In OTL Stalin was wary of pressing into Greece. He had agreed with Churchill in the percentages agreement and at Yalta over the situation in Greece. You either have to change those agreements I'm not sure how you would get Churchill to agree nor FDR later to more Soviet sphere of influence in Greece. Stalin also did not think that the USSR was ready to challenge the West in 1945-1946. Stalin was more concerned with consolidating the later Warsaw sphere of influence.

Tito is also going to have too behave differently to prevent the "Split". He already had the US-UK looking at him badly due to the attacks on the UK/US supply the tail end of WW2, Tito wanting territories from other Soviet sphere states, and not taking aid from the US in the Marshall plan. This is almost a Stalin isn't Stalin and Tito isn't Tito situation.

Pouring in of Aid from the USSR to Greece is going to have the West look at Stalin in a way that they can not trust Stalin in anyway after a reversal of previous agreements and discussions. You are going to get suggested reversals by the West on previous agreements that Stalin might not agree and push things into the Cold War faster and make things hot. Stalin for all the crazy things he did isn't stupid. He was happy for Greece to fall out of the Soviet sphere for things in his mind are more important.

Pouring of aid, men, and materials from Yugoslavia is going to get Washington and London ringing Moscow going WTF? Along with a please rein in Tito or we will. If the waves of assassins can't get Tito then the US/UK are going to intervene. Tito being scared of Greece invasions of Albania/Yugoslavia will be replaced with scared notions of the US/UK coming instead. I'm not sure Tito would want to press this. He has too much to loose. Yugoslavia needed the aid from the West and was one of the concessions for Yugoslavia to stop aiding the Communists in Greece. If Yugoslavia is full bore aiding the Greek Communists then the aid from the US isn't coming Tito knows this.
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Ok I want an Korean War like Scenario in Europe and Greek Civil War was closet I could Find could make up a Balkan Country that’s less fun than an actual historical Event with Greek Civil War
 
Hrvatskiwi

Hrvatskiwi

Sheridantank1996 said:
Ok I want an Korean War like Scenario in Europe and Greek Civil War was closet I could Find could make up a Balkan Country that’s less fun than an actual historical Event with Greek Civil War
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Best chance for a Korean War-like scenario, although its still not very likely, is having the Lorkovic plot succeed in the NDH late in WWII, that country being aligned with the West but in a somewhat uncertain diplomatic position, Tito invading to attempt to annex it to Yugoslavia, and then the war escalating from there. Not very likely, but more plausible than the Greek Civil War turning into a Korean War analogue.
 

Sheridantank1996

Hrvatskiwi said:
Best chance for a Korean War-like scenario, although its still not very likely, is having the Lorkovic plot succeed in the NDH late in WWII, that country being aligned with the West but in a somewhat uncertain diplomatic position, Tito invading to attempt to annex it to Yugoslavia, and then the war escalating from there. Not very likely, but more plausible than the Greek Civil War turning into a Korean War analogue.
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Thank you So NDH(Independent State of Croatia) Instead of Greece
 
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