España No Ha Muerto: If Franco brought Spain into the Second World War

[CV(N)-6]

I would imagine that Spain now already entering WWII on the side of the Axis Powers would affect Portugal's neutrality and possibly the supply of British troops via the Mediterranean when Francoist Spain tried to seize the opportunity by taking over Gibraltar, but it would not only drag the scale of the war but would cause logistical problems for the Allied forces in Egypt.

How would the battles such as El Alamein, Tobruk, and other the scope of military operations in North Africa, once the Spaniards would try to help the Axis forces by cutting the maritime supply lines in the Mediterranean Sea?

Egypt was largely supplied by convoys going the long way around Africa. The bigger problem for the British is supplying Malta and the fact that it can't interdict Italian supply lines as well as OTL.

 

[Gar48]

Egypt was largely supplied by convoys going the long way around Africa. The bigger problem for the British is supplying Malta and the fact that it can't interdict Italian supply lines as well as OTL.

Another interesting point is that King Forouk was sympathetic to the Axis IRL. With the Germans being in a stronger position in North Africa, he ma decide to assist Berlin one way or another.

I also wonder what's going to happen in Marocco. Franco may gain the French section of the country by Vicky further complicating the situation in North Africa.

 

[Garrison]

I would imagine that Spain now already entering WWII on the side of the Axis Powers would affect Portugal's neutrality and possibly the supply of British troops via the Mediterranean when Francoist Spain tried to seize the opportunity by taking over Gibraltar, but it would not only drag the scale of the war but would cause logistical problems for the Allied forces in Egypt.

How would the battles such as El Alamein, Tobruk, and other the scope of military operations in North Africa, once the Spaniards would try to help the Axis forces by cutting the maritime supply lines in the Mediterranean Sea?

Cut it with what would be the obvious response. It will be down to the Regia Marina, Regia Aeronautica and Luftwaffe, assuming the Germans aren't stupid enough to pull U-Boats from the Atlantic. And of course as hazardous as it may be supplies and reinforcements can come through Suez.

 

[sarahz]

I would imagine that Spain now already entering WWII on the side of the Axis Powers would affect Portugal's neutrality and possibly the supply of British troops via the Mediterranean when Francoist Spain tried to seize the opportunity by taking over Gibraltar, but it would not only drag the scale of the war but would cause logistical problems for the Allied forces in Egypt.

How would the battles such as El Alamein, Tobruk, and other the scope of military operations in North Africa, once the Spaniards would try to help the Axis forces by cutting the maritime supply lines in the Mediterranean Sea?

Well if Italy does attack either the Royalists in Palma or Malta there must be a good chance that even if successful they lose quite a lot of shipping. That would make supplying North Africa quite tricky. One does not particularly need to interdict ships that dont exist.

 

[Gar48]

Well if Italy does attack either the Royalists in Palma or Malta there must be a good chance that even if successful they lose quite a lot of shipping. That would make supplying North Africa quite tricky. One does not particularly need to interdict ships that dont exist.

Also Mussolini is still Mussolini. The chances of him fucking up are very high

 

[arrowiv]

I would point out that even in 1941, there was already a functioning Spanish Republican embassy in exile along with Republican exiles living in Mexico. Any role for them in this TL along with other Republicans living in Latin America?

 

[Iggies]

I would point out that even in 1941, there was already a functioning Spanish Republican embassy in exile along with Republican exiles living in Mexico. Any role for them in this TL along with other Republicans living in Latin America?

Yep, next update will probably deal with Portugal, and then I'll address what the Spanish Republican exiles are up to and their relationship with the Allies.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

Alternatively if it's localized leftists maybe the Soviets are the ones who want to split off the red Catalans or whomever to get their East Germany West on the Mediterranean.

The other question is – why would the Soviet Union even want this anarchist stronghold? The problems it's going to cause greatly outweigh any advantages to be had in a Mediterranean base of operations.

 

[NHBL]

The other question is – why would the Soviet Union even want this anarchist stronghold? The problems it's going to cause greatly outweigh any advantages to be had in a Mediterranean base of operations.

The NKVD is sadly good at making people behave, even if it's just making them lie quietly--very quietly. Their best musicians won't be composing music for resistance, they would be decomposing.

However, I don't see the Soviets getting it; they would need a FLEET, and they don't have PEZ dispensers.

 

[Gar48]

The other question is – why would the Soviet Union even want this anarchist stronghold? The problems it's going to cause greatly outweigh any advantages to be had in a Mediterranean base of operations.

Counterpoint: the Soviets are a bit too busy fighting for their life right now to care about Spanish anarchists

However I don't think Spain wil be balkanised ITTL. The US is already treating the Spanish exiles like OTL De Gasperi after 1943 aka "legitimate government fighting against fascist invaders".

Also De Gaulle will probably oppose dividing Spain to avoid unexpected consequences on France.

I would point out that even in 1941, there was already a functioning Spanish Republican embassy in exile along with Republican exiles living in Mexico. Any role for them in this TL along with other Republicans living in Latin America?

I hope the Falangist's propaganda will horribly backfire. Seeing Latin America more involved in this TL's WW2 could be interesting.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

Counterpoint: the Soviets are a bit too busy fighting for their life right now to care about Spanish anarchists

It's true, as long as the Soviet Union fights for its life in Eastern Europe, the Soviet leadership has no reason to spend its time musing on the Spanish anarchists.

However, that would change as soon as putting a Soviet garrison on the Montjuïc becomes a serious option.

 

[Mitridates the Great]

It is quite unlikely that the Soviets will be allowed in Spain. They were in Germany because they arrived there with their troops, but the Allies kept all of Italy and all of Japan, so they would have even more reasons to keep all of Spain.

And Stalin will not push for the right to occupy Spain because he knows that is nonsense and that they have to defeat Germany first...

Even if the Allies decide that they are going to try to balkanize Spain anyway they will definitely NOT allow a communist government to be established on either side.

 

[SirHalifax]

Singular update today. Not too many new developments here, but I was watching some old US propaganda films from the war and noticed the way Spain is usually conspicuously absent when discussing the lead up the war, presumably as a consequence of Franco's neutrality. So I started wondering what an entry in the Why We Fight series that dealt with Spain would look like, and I wrote it. In short, lots of comparisons to American history, inflation of casualty counts and death tolls, presentation of the civil war as a foreign Nazi-Fascist plot, and careful avoidance of any mention of communism or the violent anticlericalism that was such a prominent feature of the SCW.

I’m quite surprised no mention was given to the International Brigades. I’m sure the Abraham Lincoln Brigade in particular would be lionized.

 

[HagenWest]

I’m quite surprised no mention was given to the International Brigades. I’m sure the Abraham Lincoln Brigade in particular would be lionized.

Too leftist, like how in the movies about the USSR or China it doesn't mention communism

 

[Whiteshore]

I’m quite surprised no mention was given to the International Brigades. I’m sure the Abraham Lincoln Brigade in particular would be lionized.

Too leftist, like how in the movies about the USSR or China it doesn't mention communism

We could at the very least have had generically vague allusions to "brave men who went to Spain to fight for democracy", even if the International Brigades would not specifically be mentioned.

 

[Pax_Nihil]

Very good so far, also..... watched!

 

[Iggies]

I’m quite surprised no mention was given to the International Brigades. I’m sure the Abraham Lincoln Brigade in particular would be lionized.

Real answer is I meant to include a mention of the IB but I forgot : p

We can say the writers worked them in a little later somehow, since that’s only PART of the transcript.

 

[Whiteshore]

Real answer is I meant to include a mention of the IB but I forgot : p

We can say the writers worked them in a little later somehow, since that’s only PART of the transcript.

And yeah, would they specifically name the IBs or would my suggestion of a general reference to "brave men who went to Spain to fight for democracy" work?

 

[Gar48]

I’m quite surprised no mention was given to the International Brigades. I’m sure the Abraham Lincoln Brigade in particular would be lionized.

They were Communists and they let black soldiers serve equally. FDR is probably not talking about them to avoid a political controversy

 

[Garrison]

They were Communists and they let black soldiers serve equally. FDR is probably not talking about them to avoid a political controversy

Yeah those are two things that aren't going to be popular in the USA.
ETA: Never mind thinking of a different TL.