Diogo de Teive discovers the Americas in the 1452

[Phalamus]

Diogo de Teive was a Portuguese navigator who, in 1451/1452, embarked on an expedition to explore the Atlantic Ocean west of Terceira island. This resulted in the discovery of Corvo and Flores, the two westernmost of the Azorean islands. Some rumors also say that he may have sighted North America during this voyage.

What if he not only sighted it, but actually managed to discover the continent more than 40 years before Columbus?

Presumably, he would find either Newfoundland, or, if he wandered further south, Nova Scotia or New England. This wouldn't be a particularly exciting discovery, I think. Columbus found gold in Cuba, Teive would only find cold. I can see him receiving whatever news lands he discovers as a hereditary captaincy, and they would most likely be an attempt to develop them as an extension of the Azores, which may successful or end up the same way as the later OTL Newfoundland colony...

The key question is, knowing that there is a large landmass to the west, and not being yet as razor-focused on India as they would later be (it wasn't even clear if it was possible to reach India by sea until Bartolomeu Dias' expedition of 1488), do the Portuguese do any more American exploration over the coming decades? Is there a possibility they may discover America's riches? How much of a head start do they have before other European countries show up in the western hemipshere?

 

[Arkenfolm]

This wouldn't be a particularly exciting discovery, I think. Columbus found gold in Cuba, Teive would only find cold.

You added an extra "l" there, I think, since odds are good Teive would find cod (just as Cabot did 45 years later). And that happens to be something Atlantic Europe in the mid-15th century is very interested in, even if not quite the same value as gold.

There is some indication Portugal explored Newfoundland very early on, possibly before Cabot, hence the name "Land of Codfish" that appeared on Portuguese maps. I think this additional head start might make them more interested than OTL.

 

[Phalamus]

You added an extra "l" there, I think, since odds are good Teive would find cod (just as Cabot did 45 years later). And that happens to be something Atlantic Europe in the mid-15th century is very interested in, even if not quite the same value as gold.

Lol, I actually did write cod at first, but then I decided to change it so that it rhymed

And you're right, of course. It would be immediately recognized as a great place for fishing stations. It just wouldn't lead to as much of an immediate frenzy as Columbus' voyage. Probably just a captaincy under Teive, and the possibility of more exploration over the coming decades. It would probably be a slow start until gold was found, though

 

[raharris1973]

If he finds the coast and gets a captaincy on the mainland in 1452, there's an off-chance that he, others, and successors over the next fifty years will have enough curiosity to cruise around from that bit of coastline, to see just how big it is, how long it goes on, what is on the other side, whether it is continuous land, or open ocean that leads to a passage to the Far East after a further (possibly long) voyage. Even if most of the first decade of exploring/mapping branched out from Newfie, Nova Scotia, or New England finds nothing much of interest besides fish in the regions between the treacherous Arctic Waters of Hudson Bay and those of the east coast of Florida, any branching south into the Caribbean will start to reveal more interesting and richer peoples like the Taino. So, all of the coastlines of both continents up through Northern California on the other side might get at least an exploratory "once-over" from European voyages by 1502, with multiple places like Mexico, Colombia, Peru noted as "definitely worth a second look".

 

[CaptainCalvert]

If he finds the coast and gets a captaincy on the mainland in 1452, there's an off-chance that he, others, and successors over the next fifty years will have enough curiosity to cruise around from that bit of coastline, to see just how big it is, how long it goes on, what is on the other side, whether it is continuous land, or open ocean that leads to a passage to the Far East after a further (possibly long) voyage. Even if most of the first decade of exploring/mapping branched out from Newfie, Nov Scotia, or New England finds nothing much of interest besides fish in the regions between the treacherous Arctic Waters of Hudson Bay and those of the east coast of Florida, any branching south into the Caribbean will start to reveal more interesting and richer peoples like the Taino. So all of the coastlines of both continents up through Northern California on the other side might get at least an exploratory "once-over" from European voyages by 1502, with multiple places like Mexico, Colombia, Peru noted as "definitely worth a second look".

Cod was hugely important at the time. English cod fishing in Icelandic waters led to problems for people in Iceland when boats landed for resupply and rest [1]. There have been suggestions that the West Greenland settlements were abandoned due to English cod fishing fleets raiding them.

And if Basque whalers were working off Newfoundland about then - which is at least possible - they may well have been aware of the Grand Banks even if the English hadn't already found them. It's difficult to keep such things a secret, especially when there's experience that heading West tends to keep throwing out new places to explore.

Dangerous and freezing expanses are less of a barrier if there is the lure of good money from salt cod. You basically need the ability to survive about 6 weeks to 2 months and head west at 60 or so degrees, maybe land to pick up water and something like scurvy grass, then return. It's hardly a walk in the park, but it should be possible using mid 1400s technology.

[1] Quite possibly also including theft and drunken fights.

 

[Talus I of Dixie]

If he finds the coast and gets a captaincy on the mainland in 1452, there's an off-chance that he, others, and successors over the next fifty years will have enough curiosity to cruise around from that bit of coastline, to see just how big it is, how long it goes on, what is on the other side, whether it is continuous land, or open ocean that leads to a passage to the Far East after a further (possibly long) voyage. Even if most of the first decade of exploring/mapping branched out from Newfie, Nov Scotia, or New England finds nothing much of interest besides fish in the regions between the treacherous Arctic Waters of Hudson Bay and those of the east coast of Florida, any branching south into the Caribbean will start to reveal more interesting and richer peoples like the Taino. So all of the coastlines of both continents up through Northern California on the other side might get at least an exploratory "once-over" from European voyages by 1502, with multiple places like Mexico, Colombia, Peru noted as "definitely worth a second look".

He may not find much for a while, but i think he'll definitely like to discover he was just given like, a continent-wide capitancy as property...

 

[lit17]

Un dato a tener en cuenta es la leyenda de Antilia o Antilla, leyenda relacionada con un grupo de cristianos que huyeron de Iberia cuando los musulmanes conquistaron la península, quienes encontraron tierras donde fundaron siete ciudades. Si Teive llega a las costas de Nueva Inglaterra, por ubicación, podría creer que llegó a Antilia, considerando que en las expediciones en África buscaban el reino del "Preste Juan", los reyes portugueses podrían enviar expediciones en busca de estas ciudades.

 

[Coluber]

Un dato a tener en cuenta es la leyenda de Antilia o Antilla, leyenda relacionada con un grupo de cristianos que huyeron de Iberia cuando los musulmanes conquistaron la península, quienes encontraron tierras donde fundaron siete ciudades. Si Teive llega a las costas de Nueva Inglaterra, por ubicación, podría creer que llegó a Antilia, considerando que en las expediciones en África buscaban el reino del "Preste Juan", los reyes portugueses podrían enviar expediciones en busca de estas ciudades.

Exactly. North America could be then called Antilia. South America would just be America. I have no problem with that. As for the cities, well, taking into account what disease did to the natives in our timeline, would they find any cities by the time they reach the Mississipi?

 

[Phalamus]

OK, let's try to take it step by step.

I did some digging and, apparently, Teive wasn't granted the captaincy over Corvo and Flores immediately. It's a bit unclear what happened at first, as I've seen some sources that say the islands were given by Afonso V to the Duke of Braganza, while others mention Prince Henry... but it seems that nobody actually colonized the islands the island until the wave of Flemish migration in the 1470s.

In any case, that was Corvo and Flores. Newfoundland will generate more early interest because of cod, so I can see cod fisheries being established almost immediately, and, most likely, expeditions to chart the new 'island' further south. By around 1460, I presume it's likely that something resembling Sebastian Cabot's "Southern voyage" of 1508-9 should have place, meaning that most of the coast of the OTL eastern United States will have been discovered.

It's also important to take note that until November of 1460, Prince Henry will be calling the shots, but after that it will all be in the hands of private citizens until 1481 (Afonso V wasn't a fan of maritime exploration and was busy with North African crusading, and later the War of Castilian Succession). Still, I presume that throughout the 70s and 80s, there would be continuous settlement in North American undertaken by Portuguese and Flemish entrepreneurs (the same bunch that continued to colonize the Azores). Could one of them find the Caribean, and maybe even the Aztecs, during this period?

Even if they did, conquest would be impossible without royal support, so it would always need to wait for the 1480s.

So, come 1481, John II comes along and Portuguese colonial policy changes drastically. If the Americas are making enough money by then, I can see him taking a very active interest. The continent starts seeing an actual military presence and the crown will collect the taxes itself. Also, if by this time there are at least rumors of gold, he will want to look for them and secure their source. This is where the opportunity for *conquest* appears.

Now, the question is, what are other European countries doing by this time? The most immediate threat is obviously Spain, which forces us to take a little step back and ask: how did Portuguese activities in the Americas affect the Treaty of Alcaçovas ?

 

[raharris1973]

Still, I presume that throughout the 70s and 80s, there would be continuous settlement in North American undertaken by Portuguese and Flemish entrepreneurs (the same bunch that continued to colonize the Azores)

How fast were the Azores being colonized? How many hundreds per decade, and what was motivating people to move there?

 

[Viriato]

How fast were the Azores being colonized? How many hundreds per decade, and what was motivating people to move there?

The Azores were settled beginning in the 1440s, and the last island to be settled was Corvo in the beginning of the 16th century. Initially settlers were brought from the Algarve, but then a mixture of Flemish, Bretons, Italians and others were also added to the mix, along with slaves and mixed-race individuals from Cape Verde. I've seen numbers floated around that some 5,000 Europeans were settled in the islands during the 15hth century, but these are difficult to verify. Most came for free land, as land was granted to donatary captains whom in turn granted smaller holdings to individual families. One of the captains happened to be Flemish and brought settlers from Flanders to populate the islands of Terceira, Pico, Faial, São Jorge and Flores, by 1490 there were said to be 2,000 Flemish settlers in the Azores. By the late 17th century the archipelago had over 100,000 inhabitants, the overpopulation of the islands had led to vastly higher rates of emigration than those from the mainland, with the beginning of large-scale emigration to Brazil being evident in the early 17th century.

 

[Viriato]

My guess is once knowledge of a landmass is known there would be further exploration towards the Antilles. Lately I have hypothesized that sailings from Lisbon towards the Canaries and Antilles would have become more commonplace due to the ocean currents, with contact with the Greater Antilles, namely Hispaniola, Puerto Rico and Cuba would have occurred within a short number of years. These islands would likely have been colonised and turned into sugar producing islands shortly thereafter, more than likely becoming the principal source of sugar for Portuguese traders, supplanting Madeira and the Azores and butterflying away the large-scale sugar production in Northeastern Brazil.

Though looking at the sailing times from Lisbon to Recife when compared with Lisbon to Hispaniola they are almost identical. Though the islands of the Lesser Antilles, particularly Antigua, Barbados and Guadeloupe are all a shorter sailing distance to Lisbon than Puerto Rico, and nearly two weeks less than western Cuba. It might be that these islands are granted are amongst the first granted to donatary captains as they might be seen as easier to conquer, another major difference from the Spanish colonization.

 

[Phalamus]

My guess is once knowledge of a landmass is known there would be further exploration towards the Antilles. Lately I have hypothesized that sailings from Lisbon towards the Canaries and Antilles would have become more commonplace due to the ocean currents, with contact with the Greater Antilles, namely Hispaniola, Puerto Rico and Cuba would have occurred within a short number of years. These islands would likely have been colonised and turned into sugar producing islands shortly thereafter, more than likely becoming the principal source of sugar for Portuguese traders, supplanting Madeira and the Azores and butterflying away the large-scale sugar production in Northeastern Brazil.

Makes sense, but assuming that discovery of the Antilles occurs at some point during the 1460s (or maybe even late 50s...) how soon could colonization really start in earnest with Afonso V busy in North Africa? Could private traders handle it on their own with minimal crown support?

 

[Viriato]

Makes sense, but assuming that discovery of the Antilles occurs at some point during the 1460s (or maybe even late 50s...) how soon could colonization really start in earnest with Afonso V busy in North Africa? Could private traders handle it on their own with minimal crown support?

Probably similar to the colonization of the Azores, which was based on the settlement of newly reconquered lands centuries earlier during the reconquista, and would subsequently be used to colonise Brazil after 1531. Donatary Captains or grantees are probably selected from the nobility to undertake the responsibility for populating and distributing lands to new settlers, administering justice and collecting tithes.

When settlement of the Azores began in 1439, there was initially at least there were few willing settlers as the North African conquests were more appealing. In 1443, Afonso IV exempted settlers from paying the 10% dízima or tithe. Despite this, the islands were still attracting few settlers, and in 1450 a donatary captaincy was granted to Jácome de Bruges, a native of Flanders allowing seventeen Flemish families to begin the settlement of the island of Terceira. Subsequently, Portuguese settlers were brough to the island. The islands soon began to produce sugar and in particular woad, a plant used to produce a rich blue colored dye and exported to Flanders. Woad would lose its importance as it was displaced by indigo cultivated in the tropics.

 

[galik]

For what I've researched July would be the best month for starting the voyage west since the winds blow west to Cape Cod then north. Feasibility is what I need to understand. What is the speed of the navigation vessels he would used and is he going to get at land sight before the winds change?

 

[Viriato]

For what I've researched July would be the best month for starting the voyage west since the winds blow west to Cape Cod then north. Feasibility is what I need to understand. What is the speed of the navigation vessels he would used and is he going to get at land sight before the winds change?

Around that time, a mid-fifteenth century caravel would have been used. From the Azores it would have reached Cape Cod in 27 to 38 days depending on the speed of the winds. Below is a map of the wind belts on the Atlantic.

 

[Phalamus]

So, from what has been said so far, I think it should be pretty safe that Portuguese exploration of North America should already be fairly advanced by 1479, right? The Easter seaboard of the continent and the Caribbean would both be known and colonisation might already be underway.

What does Castile do in this situation. How does this affect the Treaty of Alcaçovas?

 

[galik]

Around that time, a mid-fifteenth century caravel would have been used. From the Azores it would have reached Cape Cod in 27 to 38 days depending on the speed of the winds. Below is a map of the wind belts on the Atlantic.

earth :: a global map of wind, weather, and ocean conditions

See current wind, weather, ocean, and pollution conditions, as forecast by supercomputers, on an interactive animated map. Updated every three hours.

earth.nullschool.net

I'm using this site and looking at yearly basis he needs to leave 1st day to make this feasible. If it takes around a month to arrive he would be there in early August, he could make the voyage north nearn Sable Island with >20km/h winds to arrive at Newfoundland or Cape Breton. Cape Cod he takes a bit more time by going southwest then northwest. There are also strong winds towards the south of Bermudas and then straight west to the Carolina's.

 

[HyperMuscularDemon]

How would Portugal keep out the Basques? IIRC around 1517 just 25 years after the OTL discovery of the Americas in 1492, Basque sailors and fishermen began to pop up on the shores of Newfoundland, and they were on sigh good terms with the local Native Americans that a creole Basque Algonquian language popped up. How will the Portuguese handle them? Knowledge of Atlantic Canada may spread from the Basque sailors, and a European power, maybe France, Spain, England, Denmark-Norway, etc….. could go sailing and explore Canada, and discover the beaver and timber located there, which would incentivize settlement of Canada? How would Portugal plan to handle them?

 

[Arariboia Guamá]

How would Portugal plan to handle them?

Riverside and coastal forts? It worked for much of Brazil, especially the North. Control the rivers and deltas and waterways, no one can get in.

If they do it right, they could reach all the Great Lakes, and have free action through a lot of North America through the Mississippi.