DBWI: Star Trek made by Paramount and Doctor Who made by the BBC?

[Luath]

Hello all.

So 2013 was a fairly momentous year for scifi fans, with two of the most famous shows of that genre celebrating there fiftieth anniversaries. The BBC serial Star Trek created by Sydney Newman and the Paramount show Doctor Who by Gene Roddenberry, though ST was the only one that actually aired an episode "We shall Endeavor" which had been hyped in the run up to the anniversary.

Both shows have a similar aim; an exploration of Space. They differ wildly in their approach. Star Trek is focused on Scientific exploration of the universe and science as tool to educate and uplift mankind as well as the drama that arises from interaction with their own universe and the crew of the Commonwealth exploration vessel the CES Endeavor. Doctor who follows the character of the Doctor, a being with the ability to control time, who often moves from the present day to the future or to the past and interacts with figures there. The emphasis is less on science and more on the action that rises organically from the situation and drama from the aim of the episode in question. So in short; Trek creates its own history and lore and draws its stories from that, leading to character and story arcs as part of a bigger story. Who is focused on American history and the potential for America in the future, as of such the stories tend to more episodic in nature and the Lore will be drawn from existing culture.

Another area the two show differ is their histories, both aired in 1963, DW ran for five seasons from 63-1970, and by that point the show was wearing outs its 60s kitsch charm, from 1970 onwards the doctor took a more subdued role with the release of eight movies from 73 to 1986. The success of these films allow a renewed doctor who to take to the air in 1989, after an unsuccessful first and second season the show hit its stride and managed to run for a total of 10 seasons until 1998. Since then there has not been a new Doctor who show, but in 2009 a feature film was release staring the titular timelord a sequel was released in 2011, although commercially successful, critical reaction has been mixed and fans are divided over the new 'dark' who.

Star Trek by comparison is the longest running science fiction show, starting in 1963 and continuing to 1990, part of this longevity is down to the use of the plot point of promoting a new captain either from within the crew or from without, this most likely arose after captain Hartnell left in the 1965 season and was replaced by Captain pike, these keeps the cast fresh and allow the show to age quite gracefully, though it has lead to the 'Corrie in space' critique. The Show went on hiatus in 1990, arguable for the best, its was starting to feel like a sitcom rather than a drama-action piece. Interest remained high and the show was eventually brought back in 2005, since then it has gone from strength to strength, managing to break new ground in both the USA and Japan, even leading to the BBC buying, of all things, DC comics. This has lead to several spin offs including Deep space 12 and the popular anime 'Star Trek: Cadets'.

So with all this in mind, what if these two shows had been made on opposite sides of the Atlantic? What would a Newman Who look like? And what would Roddenberry do with Trek?

Yours
Luath

 

[M79]

Ooc: does I love Lucy still exist in this timeline? Desilu productions was key in Star Trek's existence in OTL

 

[Luath]

Ooc: does I love Lucy still exist in this timeline? Desilu productions was key in Star Trek's existence in OTL

OOC: lets play it safe and say yes.

 

[Drunkrobot]

I guess early Trek would've been less...'white'. Not much of a Whooie, more of a Trekker, but I do know that Roddenberry was insistent of emphasizing the breakdown of racial barriers in what was then the future (That famous kiss between the Doctor and Romana certainly sent shockwaves over there). Compare the early crews of the Endeavor. You had British, Canadians, Australians, New Zealanders and other Europeans, mostly. Having an Indian medical officer was probably all they were going to get away with (not that Sharmila Tagore didn't hit home runs in her role). On the other hand, Doctor Who would take longer to have non-white main characters, especially as the smaller cast would make it harder to 'squeeze in' a non-white actor.

I guess that the villains would also have differences. The Daleks thrived in Trek because they obeyed Newmans rule; "No robots, and no Bug-Eyed Monsters". They weren't obviously men in tinfoil suits or cheap rubber masks. They were also the textbook 'space-Nazis', as opposed to the 'space-commie' Klingons, because that was still 'The Enemy' to a Britain that was still clearing rubble from the war. That's why there's a strong militarist mindset in the Commonwealth admirals, they were fighting the Daleks as opposed to making sure to avoid war with the Klingons, like the US was trying to avoid war with the Soviet Union. Swap the background of both, we could likely see both villains have huge differences.

You might butterfly away the purchase of DC and the Second Anime Boom in the Commonwealth (Cadets was a 'gateway' show for children in Britain and the Commonwealth. They didn't have that much knowledge of anime, aside from maybe Pokemon, but they certainly knew Star Trek and took interest on name alone. So many liked the different style that they started watching other anime shows, until before you know it the BBC has morning slots for inhouse-dubbed shows). DC was facing some dire straights back then, I wonder who else would buy them. Disney? Maybe even Marvel themselves?

 

[Luath]

I never thought of that, maybe there could be an episode centered on a 'Space Vienna' with Commonwealth and Dalek spies trading information on their respective empires, thought I think the Daleks are probably to extreme, yeah early trek does have a bit of racial baggage. However the 2005 series did arguable launch Idris Elba's Career, but really who else could have captained the Endeavor?

A fair amount of good story has come from the class divide between the 'Explorer fleet' and the 'Navy', with the ideologies of both overlapping. I think the best story of this was 'Genesis of the Daleks'. Admiral Hamilton, who has fought the Daleks from on side of the Alpha quadrant to the other, seen entire fleets, entire planets exterminated, now has them at his mercy, sits there in that iconic chair wrestling between his duty to make Space safe for the peoples of the commonwealth and the humanity the crew has shown him. I still get chills when Baker asks if he 'has the right'.

Only one tea and cartoon obsessed Island? Perish the thought. Still Cadets did get into a little bit of trouble in the US; Cadets Mark Harford and Voltaire, who is openly gay, shared an experimental homosexual kiss over morning tea, this was shown on BBC America and... well complaints from the usual quarter. Still I was amazed at the crossover with the Teen Titans, a universe governed by Science, meeting a universe mostly governed by magic? It shouldn't, but it worked.

 

[Drunkrobot]

I never thought of that, maybe there could be an episode centered on a 'Space Vienna' with Commonwealth and Klingon spies trading information on their respective empire, yeah early trek does have a bit of racial baggage. However the 2005 series did arguable launch Idris Elba's Career, but really who else could have captained the Endeavor?

OOC: Sorry, I was imagining that the Klingons would be the big baddies of TTL Doctor Who, in exchange for the Daleks remaining in Britain to be in Star Trek. So the 'Time War' would be closer to a Cold War, between the Time Lords (Time Ministers? No aristocracy in America, so 'Lords' might not make the cut.) and the Klingons, than any ongoing war of extermination like in Classic Who. Maybe the TTL 2009 movie has the two finally unleashing Armageddon on each other? Maybe it was the Doctor who caused it?

 

[Luath]

OOC: Sorry, I was imagining that the Klingon would be the big baddies of TTL Doctor Who, in exchange for the Daleks remaining in Britain to be in Star Trek. So the 'Time War' would be closer to a Cold War, between the Time Lords (Time Ministers? No aristocracy in America, so 'Lords' might not make the cut.) than any ongoing war of extermination like in Classic Who. Maybe the TTL 2009 movie has the two finally unleashing Armageddon on each other? Maybe it was the Doctor who caused it?

IC: Fixed it.

He was temporally the time master, but lords did better with audiences.

 

[Drunkrobot]

Might the TARDIS be different? British shows tend to need to use a smaller budget, at least back then, those shots of the TARDIS flying through space might be cutting it tight. And with those Orion-inspired spaces, it's interior looks close to a freaking hotel compared to the cramped 'submarine in space' that is the Endeavor. Having the teleporter send the Doctor and co. into our four dimensions at any location they desire certainly cuts the cost of a 'shuttle landing sequence' away from the budget, having instead a nice, simple fade and some special effects to have the characters 'appear', but a British TARDIS will certainly be less 'grandiose'.

Ever seen that Classic Trek episode, Valley in Yesterday? It had the Endeavor be pushed through time back into 1950s Earth. (It was the one with that iconic shot of the Daleks crossing Westminster Bridge.) Wells and Ace introduced the 'Chameleon Cloak' on the shuttle, which disguised it as a 'police box', which were pretty common back then. Maybe the British TARDIS could have something similar, be a simple prop that disguised a portal to the interior? It could even vary depending on the location.

On the flipside, an American Trek could have the main ship be bigger and more open, more Aircraft Carrier than Submarine. 'Endeavor' has a bit more cultural baggage to it than 'TARDIS', so what does it get called? America has a smaller pool of exploration ship names than Britain. Jeanette? Can't use a name from a military ship, either, that goes against the philosophy of the show. And it was still 1963, Apollo hadn't happened yet, so names like 'Eagle' might not've occurred to them. Wait, actually, the Mercury missions had just ended back then. Freedom, Liberty Bell, Friendship, Aurora, Sigma and Faith, perfect material.

 

[The Vet]

Wonder what a British DW would have instead of the Bigfoot? I mean the bigfoot appearing in the New York subway is one of the iconic DW images

 

[Luath]

Might the TARDIS be different? British shows tend to need to use a smaller budget, at least back then, those shots of the TARDIS flying through space might be cutting it tight. And with those Orion-inspired spaces, it's interior looks close to a freaking hotel compared to the cramped 'submarine in space' that is the Endeavor. Having the teleporter send the Doctor and co. into our four dimensions at any location they desire certainly cuts the cost of a 'shuttle landing sequence' away from the budget, having instead a nice, simple fade and some special effects to have the characters 'appear', but a British TARDIS will certainly be less 'grandiose'.

I remember the First season of the 1989 run of DW, 'A private match' I think, where in the doctor goes back to the 1770s and disguises the Tardis as... The White House, yes that season stretched things a bit then. I think the problem was the Roddenberry wanted the character to represent the perfect man, who was basically flawless. This meant that the Doctor was either as boring as paste or an arrogant jerk who flies around in national monuments. Its is amazing how much more spacious the Endeavor of the 2380s is in comparison to its 2250 counter part, I mean Ten Forward?! You mean to tell me that this ship is more than just the bridge and that one corridor that keeps getting reused? More than that, this Ship is huge and for once it actually looks like it does have a crew of 1000. I do think the transporters were a much innovation as well.

Ever seen that Classic Trek episode, Valley in Yesterday? It had the Endeavor be pushed through time back into 1950s Earth. (It was the one with that iconic shot of the Daleks crossing Westminster Bridge.) Wells and Ace introduced the 'Chameleon Cloak' on the shuttle, which disguised it as a 'police box', which were pretty common back then. Maybe the British TARDIS could have something similar, be a simple prop that disguised a portal to the interior? It could even vary depending on the location.

Can't, the Rihannsu nicked the only working prototype. I did like how that came back to bite the commonwealth in 2005.

On the flipside, an American Trek could have the main ship be bigger and more open, more Aircraft Carrier than Submarine. 'Endeavor' has a bit more cultural baggage to it than 'TARDIS', so what does it get called? America has a smaller pool of exploration ship names than Britain. Jeanette? Can't use a name from a military ship, either, that goes against the philosophy of the show. And it was still 1963, Apollo hadn't happened yet, so names like 'Eagle' might not've occurred to them. Wait, actually, the Mercury missions had just ended back then. Freedom, Liberty Bell, Friendship, Aurora, Sigma and Faith, perfect material.

Probably something American with a bit of Kitsch, wait what about 'USS Starsabre'? ST basically nicked a lot of conventions from the Royal Navy, so an American one would like use its military as well. So the new Wonder woman trailer is out as the Beeb carries on constructing the DC film universe, cirque all you like, its making the corporation billions, what do you thing.

Luath.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

I would imagine that A US version of Trek would be less gritty and 'prettier' with a bigger budget i.e. the US ship would look like something more Sci fi ish (a flying saucer sort of design?) rather than the cramped experimental ship we know and love.

I suspect that the US version would employ some sort of ray guns for both crew and ship rather than HEP round firing PDWs for the Commando teams and radar missile/drone launchers for the ship.

As for episodes - the BBC basically did a mostly unified Earth that finds itself as the last member of a defeated coalition making a sort of last stand against Space Nazis while trying to bring some of the Neutrals onto their side (1940 anyone?).

I particularly liked the episode S03 E11 "Why we fight" where Captain Walker (played by Patrick Mcgoohan and the character was largely based on the then Still alive Nicolas Monserrat) realises the utter evilness of the 'Faceless' when he leads his ship to a fallen allies world to salvage their tech and rescue/kidnap their brightest scientists only to find that the 'Faceless' had moved on after wiping out the entire race - before that I was quite uncomfortable with some of the decisions he had to make i.e. abandoning the thousands of human refugees on the crippled Freighter SS Kobayashi Maru or deploying nerve weapons in a scorched earth type retreat. This episode really justified everything he had done and in the series really brings the crew (who had started to openly question his choices and actions) back together.

I imagine that had the US done Trek then unlike the Original most of the 'outdoor' scenes supposedly portraying destroyed worlds etc would not look like they were filmed in Ruined Gas works in London's East End or on the Isle of Dogs and unlike the BBC would not use the control room of a Decommissioned warship (HMS Blake in the BBCs case with Red 'mood' lighting) instead of a dedicated set.

As for Dr Who - I cannot imagine a British Version shooting his way out of situations with his favourite 'historical' gun of the week - maybe the UK Version of the Dr would manipulate people around him to make a better decision than they historically did - perhaps he is a rebellious Time Lord who does change history - rather than the other way round where the US Dr is hunting down Rebel Time Lords who are trying to change time or fixing time lines that had been damaged

Still I cannot imagine BBC producing an episode like the one where the Dr's Loyal assistant "Yanci Trager" (played by Grace Dell Nichols) in the Episode "The poor player" saves the Dr from an anti time lord device and is herself erased from memory and time - as she fades and the Dr knows that he will forget all about her and that there is nothing even he can do about it - rages and quotes Shakespeare's "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" soliloquy breaking the 4th wall and talking directly to the audience as he does so - and then when he finishes suddenly back in character looks down at the faint shadow that is all that is left of her and as if suddenly noticing it wonders aloud who it might have belonged too.

 

[Drunkrobot]

OOC: The way I was thinking, the TTL TARDIS doesn't have an 'exterior' that lands on any planets, it mainly just hanging out between dimensions, while everybody leaves through a transporter-esque booth to the side, materializing and dematerializing like how the crew in OTL Star Trek does away missions.

IC: Well, after three freaking Justice League movies, they were going to have that bright idea at some point. Bullock has talent for the part, definitely, but Wonder Woman's writing has been all over the place with the previous movies. Is she confident? Is she paranoid? Does she never crack a joke? Does she always have a one-liner waiting? I hope this movie settles her character into something distinct aside from 'The Girl'.

I suspect that the US version would employ some sort of ray guns for both crew and ship rather than HEP round firing PDWs for the Commando teams and radar missile/drone launchers for the ship.

Ah yes, who could forget Commander Lethbridge-Stewart and the UNIT Commandos? With their modded war surplus guns and their red ribbons (OOC: kinda like this), always there to prove there was lethal danger on the strange alien world of the week At least the Commander knew what he was doing.

 

[Luath]

OOC: Very, very good ideas Cry, however I would prefer if we kept the Endeavor 'Constitutionally' shaped, big on the outside, small on the outside. Also Drunk. I meant the BBC of TTL is criticized for funding blockbusters such as the Three 'leaguer', which ITTL have done as well as the Avengers, and more than paid off the license fee.

IC: Yeah the Dalek war saga was a great era of dark trek, I think its why genesis still amazes people, I particularly remember when Hamilton turned to Sarah and almost tried to get her to order him to kill the last 100 of the species, after losing so much to them, all he had left was his soul. I think the Doctors character really got going after Roddenberry died, he became more interesting and appeared to be less of a space cowboy and more of the wise sage, incredibly old, but still kind.

 

[Drunkrobot]

Still I cannot imagine BBC producing an episode like the one where the Dr's Loyal assistant "Yanci Trager" (played by Grace Dell Nichols) in the Episode "The poor player" saves the Dr from an anti time lord device and is herself erased from memory and time - as she fades and the Dr knows that he will forget all about her and that there is nothing even he can do about it - rages and quotes Shakespeare's "Tomorrow and Tomorrow and Tomorrow" soliloquy breaking the 4th wall and talking directly to the audience as he does so - and then when he finishes suddenly back in character looks down at the faint shadow that is all that is left of her and as if suddenly noticing it wonders aloud who it might have belonged too.

Oh yes, I could see how that was a very powerful episode. It marked a point where the Doctor was starting to leave 'youth' behind. It was weird seeing the usually hammy Nimoy dial it back and quote Hamlet of all things. He found a distinctly different style after The Poor Player. If you want a member of OG Trek that came close to regularly putting that sort of depth into a performance, you'd need William Hartnell, 'Admiral Graham', more a father to the Endeavor crew than a superior officer. His death in Season 4 really hurt both the characters and the audience

I think the Doctors character really got going after Roddenberry died, he became more interesting and appeared to be less of a space cowboy and more of the wise sage, incredibly old, but still kind.

God, imagine the Doctor still being a hip, young cowboy in space, kissing girls human or otherwise all around the Universe?

 

[Luath]

God, imagine the Doctor still being a hip, young cowboy in space, kissing girls human or otherwise all around the Universe?

I think once it became apparent that Nimoy was not going to be the... 'Sex Devil' Roddenberry wanted, the character began to find his niche.

... he'll always be our doctor.

Do you think the Cybermen could be as intimidating badies for Who as for Trek?

 

[Drunkrobot]

Do you think the Cybermen could be as intimidating baddies for Who as for Trek?

Oh, absolutely. The Next Man really showed off how Trek became one of the BBC's babies, the far bigger budget in the late '70s seasons showed. We see the UNIT team going through Space Station Mondas, trying to find Dr. Lumic and his team of researchers after the station goes quiet. The station's this dark, foreboding, almost jungle-like place, more like a monster-filled cave than a spaceship. Then they run into them, the research team, transformed by Lumic into these horrifying cyborgs, the 'supermen' Lumic thought we needed to be to beat the Daleks. It looked like the prosthetics were really grafted into the persons flesh, like a mix of robot and zombie. They weren't something they could've done on a smaller budget, they would've probably used tin foil, rubber and silver-painted plastic I'm sure an American studio like Paramount would be able to do the Cybermen very well, maybe more so in the 1989 show. They'd probably be scarier than the Borg. Their intentions may be terrifying, but they look awfully 'Day the Earth Stood Still'. Didn't hurt their showing in the 2011 movie.

OOC: Cybermen (in Star Trek) and Borg (in Doctor Who) sorta have their appearance switched, the Borg being fully covered in metal, the Cybermen using grafted-on prosthetics.

 

[Luath]

Oh, absolutely. The Next Man really showed off how Trek became one of the BBC's babies, the far bigger budget in the late '70s seasons showed. We see the UNIT team going through Space Station Mondas, trying to find Dr. Lumic and his team of researchers after the station goes quiet. The station's this dark, foreboding, almost jungle-like place, more like a monster-filled cave than a spaceship. Then they run into them, the research team, transformed by Lumic into these horrifying cyborgs, the 'supermen' Lumic thought we needed to be to beat the Daleks. It looked like the prosthetics were really grafted into the persons flesh, like a mix of robot and zombie. They weren't something they could've done on a smaller budget, they would've probably used tin foil, rubber and silver-painted plastic I'm sure an American studio like Paramount would be able to do the Cybermen very well, maybe more so in the 1989 show. They'd probably be scarier than the Borg. Their intentions may be terrifying, but they look awfully 'Day the Earth Stood Still'. Didn't hurt their showing in the 2011 movie.

OOC: Cybermen (in Star Trek) and Borg (in Doctor Who) sorta have their appearance switched, the Borg being fully covered in metal, the Cybermen using grafted-on prosthetics.

I honestly believe that The Next Man was the episode that the Dalek war started to turn, Lumic experiment was the Shock needed for the Commonwealth to realize how much the Daleks were corrupting them from the inside out, that Humanity and the other races risked not only losing the war, but losing themselves as well. The new resolve to preserve what was best about the Commonwealth and not just for victory is what ultimately charaterised Trek.

The War really started to turn against the Daleks with the 4-parter Battle of Vihannsu ,[SPOILERS], which saw the pepper pots trying to conquer the home world of the Vihannsu, a founding species of the Commonwealth and the people who brought Humanity into the stars. The Explorer Fleet and the Navy, as well as their Rihannsu, Gorn and Thral Allies rally for a massive fight. Its drawn parallels with the Battle for Stalingrad and El amain. The Daleks are not only unable to get at the Vihannsu, but suffer a massive loss of ships and warriors. From that episodes onwards the Daleks are on the run all building up to their final defeat in 'Genesis', which saw there reproductive vats destroyed and all of their warp drives dismantled, trapping the last 100 on Skaro.

 

[Drunkrobot]

I did a little googling, and I found an articule on Joe 90 Top Secret: Star Trek, a comic that took place in an alternate universe were the Daleks had destroyed themselves before discovering hyperflight. This lets the Vihannsu contact humanity at a later point in time, free of pressure from the daleks, and technology is more advanced instead of favoring what is 'cheap and quick' for the war. It follows the story of another crew in a different ship led by a guy named Kurt.