Challenge: completely change the alliances leading up to an alternative ww2

[Maburo]

With a POD no earlier than 1922, have a world war erupt at some point in the 30s, with a completely altered alliance system. Bonus points if you can get an unrealistic, paradox studios-esque three way war going. This alternate war, in order to be a world war, must of course include a minimum of 6/8 of all the great powers of the day, namely the US, the UK, France, Germany, Italy, the USSR, China, and Japan. If all are involved, better.

Initial ideas to get the ball rolling:
During the 30s Germany had close cooperation with China, is it possible for the Nazis to favour an alliance with China over one with Japan?

During the buildup to the German annexation of Austria, Italy and Germany came very close to conlifct, as Rome saw Austria within its sphere of influence, as a catholic, authoritarian, and neighboring regime. Could we see Italy-German relations just deteriorate further from then on until they find themselves on opposite sides of a world war?

I seem to recall having read somewhere that the nazis were not initially antagonistic to the UK, with their main focus being against the USSR, Poland, and France. Hitler seemed to ideally want Germany to dominate Europe, and allow the British to remain the dominant overseas empire. Are there any powerful British politicians that could form a government and accept this sort of an alliance? Was anyone in London tempted by the idea of eating up all of Frances colonial empire whilst allowing Hitler a free reign in Europe? That may arguably be rather unrealistic, but an anglo-german alliance focused against the Soviets seems much more feasible though.

Japan had close relations with Poland, seeing them as good allies against the Soviets. Obviously Germany provides a stronger ally to Japan than Poland, but, what if this alliance was favoured? Especially if Japan focused on the northern strategy against the Soviets than the southern strategy against the western coloinal possessions in south east asia.

Japan also had close relations with Ethiopia. Clearly not close enough to favour them against Italy, but, is there any way of the Italian invasion permanently souring relations between Rome and Tokyo, to the point they wouldn't be in an alliance together?

Most of these ideas aren't mutually compatible, but, that just goes to show what a volatile time it was, and how differently things could have gone. You guys have any thoughts?

 

[MrCarioca]

Are there any powerful British politicians that could form a government and accept this sort of an alliance?

Since the POD is no earlier than 1922, maybe Oswald Mosley gets more influence than OTL, which could land him a spot in the government.

 

[thaddeus]

With a POD no earlier than 1922, have a world war erupt at some point in the 30s, with a completely altered alliance system. Bonus points if you can get an unrealistic, paradox studios-esque three way war going. This alternate war, in order to be a world war, must of course include a minimum of 6/8 of all the great powers of the day, namely the US, the UK, France, Germany, Italy, the USSR, China, and Japan. If all are involved, better.

of course Nazi Germany could choose not to invade the USSR but rather continue their cooperation, and theUSSR would not be on the Allied side (at least for a while.)

my speculative scenario would be that Germany reaches a trade deal with the USSR around 1935-36, sort of a counterpart to their Anglo-German Naval Agreement. Germany could have become a supplier for the Soviet (Stalin's) battleship pretensions (they schemed to build 15 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovetsky_Soyuz-class_battleship)

 

[Cudymcar]

f course Nazi Germany could choose not to invade the USSR but rather continue their cooperation

What cooperation? They started cooperation in 1940, after the MRP.

 

[thaddeus]

of course Nazi Germany could choose not to invade the USSR but rather continue their cooperation, and theUSSR would not be on the Allied side (at least for a while.)

What cooperation? They started cooperation in 1940, after the MRP.

?? 1940 falls in the category of "no earlier than 1922" per the OP, actually the M-R Pact was 1939, and German-Soviet cooperation occurred throughout the interwar period (oftentimes on a clandestine basis) and was interrupted by the Nazis but trade was never completely eliminated.

the second sentence of my post suggested an earlier trade pact and a (highly speculative) naval cooperation. nonetheless it would have placed their trade on a more balanced footing, the historical imbalance was at least one of the reasons for the German invasion.

the Soviets obtained the plans for the Bismarck-class and the Dutch had plans for a Scharnhorst-class BC, Germany could have traded the actual ships to those countries and concentrated on vessels under 20k tonnes, and stockpiled huge reserves of fuel and other resources.

a second rationale for continued German-Soviet cooperation would be if Germany continued their dealings in China (with German-Soviet relations they could more easily reach China via rail and during wartime.)

all the above is basically the original Gen. von Seeckt plan during the interwar period, to draw resources from the USSR and China leaving Germany immune from naval blockades.

 

[prester.john208]

?? 1940 falls in the category of "no earlier than 1922" per the OP, actually the M-R Pact was 1939, and German-Soviet cooperation occurred throughout the interwar period (oftentimes on a clandestine basis) and was interrupted by the Nazis but trade was never completely eliminated.

the second sentence of my post suggested an earlier trade pact and a (highly speculative) naval cooperation. nonetheless it would have placed their trade on a more balanced footing, the historical imbalance was at least one of the reasons for the German invasion.

the Soviets obtained the plans for the Bismarck-class and the Dutch had plans for a Scharnhorst-class BC, Germany could have traded the actual ships to those countries and concentrated on vessels under 20k tonnes, and stockpiled huge reserves of fuel and other resources.

a second rationale for continued German-Soviet cooperation would be if Germany continued their dealings in China (with German-Soviet relations they could more easily reach China via rail and during wartime.)

all the above is basically the original Gen. von Seeckt plan during the interwar period, to draw resources from the USSR and China leaving Germany immune from naval blockades.

Could this result in an earlier winter war with the Wallies actually intervening to support Finland from the beginning of the war? Wallies bomb Baku, Grozny, Maikop, Krasnador, bombard Leningrad, Vladivostok, Archangel, Murmansk, Sebastopol. Turkey and Japan with the Wallies, Italy neutral, Chiang, Germany and USSR defacto allies.

 

[thaddeus]

Could this result in an earlier winter war with the Wallies actually intervening to support Finland from the beginning of the war? Wallies bomb Baku, Grozny, Maikop, Krasnador, bombard Leningrad, Vladivostok, Archangel, Murmansk, Sebastopol. Turkey and Japan with the Wallies, Italy neutral, Chiang, Germany and USSR defacto allies.

well ... IDK ... another benefit (to Germany) of "helping" the USSR construct a battleship fleet (or begin to construct a battleship fleet) is that it makes the Soviets a threat to the naval powers, thus maybe more of a target than historical?

UK and France declare war over Poland, along historical lines, there could be an alt. Winter War division of Romania by Germany, USSR, Hungary, and Bulgaria. a defeat of France and with a neutral Italy, there is no immediate, plausible theater for the British to attack?

 

[Cudymcar]

1940 falls in the category of "no earlier than 1922" per the OP

Actually it does not.

With a POD no earlier than 1922, have a world war erupt at some point in the 30s

 

[Insane Ranter]

The Little Entente becomes the larger Entente:
France, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Poland, Romania. Greece needs somewhere to go joins.

The Iberian Pact holds and adds the UK and Italy
Spain, Portugal, Italy, with Great Britain joined to support their ancient for all times Portugal.

Germany is isolated and alone and sees no better partner than Stalin and the USSR. Japan isolated joins them.

France, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Poland, Romania & Greece
Spain, Portugal, Italy, & Great Britain
Germany, Japan, & USSR

Belgium, The Netherlands, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Canada, USA, Mexico, Brazil, and China for the "AI went crazy in my HOI4 game and made this alliance" Alliance.

The whole war gets kicked off because El Salvador attacks Honduras.

 

[Garrison]

I seem to recall having read somewhere that the nazis were not initially antagonistic to the UK, with their main focus being against the USSR, Poland, and France. Hitler seemed to ideally want Germany to dominate Europe, and allow the British to remain the dominant overseas empire. Are there any powerful British politicians that could form a government and accept this sort of an alliance? Was anyone in London tempted by the idea of eating up all of Frances colonial empire whilst allowing Hitler a free reign in Europe? That may arguably be rather unrealistic, but an anglo-german alliance focused against the Soviets seems much more feasible though.

Sorry but this keeps getting repeated and its nonsense. Hitler's idea about co-operation with the British was based on a fundamental misunderstanding of British strategic interests. Keeping the low countries out of potentially hostile hands had been a cornerstone of British foreign policy since before there was a Britain. it should also be pointed out that Hitler had exactly zero power to allow or deny the British continued control their empire beyond threatening the British isles themsevles. Hitler's ideas about working with Britain were no more realistic than his ideas of Aryan supermen or a Jewish world conspiracy. Britain cannot allow any single nation to dominate Europe and there is little to no chance of Britain adopting a fascist government.

 

[Domrémy-Scorniçesti Axis]

With a POD no earlier than 1922, have a world war erupt at some point in the 30s, with a completely altered alliance system. Bonus points if you can get an unrealistic, paradox studios-esque three way war going. This alternate war, in order to be a world war, must of course include a minimum of 6/8 of all the great powers of the day, namely the US, the UK, France, Germany, Italy, the USSR, China, and Japan. If all are involved, better.

Initial ideas to get the ball rolling:
During the 30s Germany had close cooperation with China, is it possible for the Nazis to favour an alliance with China over one with Japan?

During the buildup to the German annexation of Austria, Italy and Germany came very close to conlifct, as Rome saw Austria within its sphere of influence, as a catholic, authoritarian, and neighboring regime. Could we see Italy-German relations just deteriorate further from then on until they find themselves on opposite sides of a world war?

I seem to recall having read somewhere that the nazis were not initially antagonistic to the UK, with their main focus being against the USSR, Poland, and France. Hitler seemed to ideally want Germany to dominate Europe, and allow the British to remain the dominant overseas empire. Are there any powerful British politicians that could form a government and accept this sort of an alliance? Was anyone in London tempted by the idea of eating up all of Frances colonial empire whilst allowing Hitler a free reign in Europe? That may arguably be rather unrealistic, but an anglo-german alliance focused against the Soviets seems much more feasible though.

Japan had close relations with Poland, seeing them as good allies against the Soviets. Obviously Germany provides a stronger ally to Japan than Poland, but, what if this alliance was favoured? Especially if Japan focused on the northern strategy against the Soviets than the southern strategy against the western coloinal possessions in south east asia.

Japan also had close relations with Ethiopia. Clearly not close enough to favour them against Italy, but, is there any way of the Italian invasion permanently souring relations between Rome and Tokyo, to the point they wouldn't be in an alliance together?

Most of these ideas aren't mutually compatible, but, that just goes to show what a volatile time it was, and how differently things could have gone. You guys have any thoughts?

Gregor Strasser comes to power in Germany and signs an anti-liberal alliance with the Soviet Union. China probably joins it, but I don't see Italy and Japan doing so due to the latter's border clashes with the Soviets.

 

[NoMommsen]

... cornerstone of British foreign policy since before there was a Britain. ...

... didn't know that the several chief of britain (Cassivelaunus, Segovax, Carvilius, Cingetorix, etc.) together or each for himself as well as their heirs and/or follow-ups ever managed to formulate any kind of such 'policy' during the about 10 years until Aulus Plautius invaded the isle in the name of the roman emperor Claudius.

... from what time you actually envisage the 'low countries' being of importance (aside simple occupational wishes maybe) for british foreign policy?

 

[Garrison]

... didn't know that the several chief of britain (Cassivelaunus, Segovax, Carvilius, Cingetorix, etc.) together or each for himself as well as their heirs and/or follow-ups ever managed to formulate any kind of such 'policy' during the about 10 years until Aulus Plautius invaded the isle in the name of the roman emperor Claudius.

... from what time you actually envisage the 'low countries' being of importance (aside simple occupational wishes maybe) for british foreign policy?

Sorry i thought I was rather obviously referring the Tudor/Elizabethan era, when it was a matter of English policy rather than British, since Britain didn't exist until the Act of Union in 1707. Elizabethan England was heavily involved in the political and military maneuvering in the Netherlands and indeed this played its part in the lead up to the Spanish Armada.

 

[lukedalton]

The march on Rome is a bloody failure with the King and the liberal enstablishment choosing to suppress the Fascist attempt to takeover, their entire leadership is killed or captured and even Mussolini is caught near the Swiss border as he was attempting to run; what follow are a couple of week of violence due to the need to supress the fascist remnant and some years of emergency law and a government directly nominated by the King with Diaz as presidente del consiglio but with Giolitti as the real mind and power behind the throne, but in the end thing return to normality.
This way the alliance with France and the UK is mantained even if there are tension
Also the Beer putsch is a bloodier failure as the Berlin authorities learn from Italy the need to deal with insurgent with major force, Adolf Hitler is among the dead; but don't bring much joy to Germany as a defacto dictatorship by Von Papen rule the nation in the 30's.
Japan instead decide to prop up the Far Eastern Republic taking also control through her of Kamchatka.
Another nation falling to dictator is the USA when the business plot oust the FDR presidency and install an 'emergency government'
The 30's are full of crisis the Spanish civil war (won by the Republican), the Jugoslavian civil war (that see the nation being divided by his neighbourgh), the union of Germany and Austria and the Canadian border crisis among them.
Now two big alliance and two wild card look at each other ready to start a new conflict
the Axis - Germany, USA, Serbia, Turkey, and Hungary
The Entente - France, Italy UK, Belgium, Netherland, Poland, Czechoslovackia and Romania
Japan and Troskyst URSS (with Spain as his little pal) as the free agent that have tension with everybody

 

[thaddeus]

of course Nazi Germany could choose not to invade the USSR but rather continue their cooperation, and theUSSR would not be on the Allied side (at least for a while.)

my speculative scenario would be that Germany reaches a trade deal with the USSR around 1935-36, sort of a counterpart to their Anglo-German Naval Agreement. Germany could have become a supplier for the Soviet (Stalin's) battleship pretensions (they schemed to build 15 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovetsky_Soyuz-class_battleship)

a second rationale for continued German-Soviet cooperation would be if Germany continued their dealings in China (with German-Soviet relations they could more easily reach China via rail and during wartime.)

all the above is basically the original Gen. von Seeckt plan during the interwar period, to draw resources from the USSR and China leaving Germany immune from naval blockades

IDK what my little scenario would change, except to preclude a German-Japanese alliance? the Spanish Civil War might be eclipsed also, could Italy carry the Nationalists to victory solo?

 

[Sekhmet_D]

Germany is isolated and alone and sees no better partner than Stalin and the USSR. Japan isolated joins them.

The Japanese would sooner commit seppuku than cooperate with Russia. Russian feelings on such a prospect would have been mutual.

 

[Maburo]

The Japanese would sooner commit seppuku than cooperate with Russia. Russian feelings on such a prospect would have been mutual.

Exactly, I feel there are plenty of countries where working together was not an impossibility: Japan-Poland, UK-Italy, Germany-China, etc etc... Japan-Russia is not one of these

 

[weasel_airlift]

well ... IDK ... another benefit (to Germany) of "helping" the USSR construct a battleship fleet (or begin to construct a battleship fleet) is that it makes the Soviets a threat to the naval powers, thus maybe more of a target than historical?

Heh, I've thought of this as a POD for Germany to get more resources out of the USSR, while weakening them at the same time. If the Soviets start pouring resources into the fleet and it's associated manufacturing tail, they get fewer tanks is my thought. So, the Germans help them to start manufacturing armor and machinery, and trade all that for resources.

 

[J.D.Ward]

Nazi racial doctrine regards the Japanese as another variety of Untermenschen. The German view of the second Sino-Japanese War is that it is a tribal squabble between sub-human Asiatics. When Pearl Harbor and the Japanese invasion of South East Asia proceed as in OTL, Hitler publically offers Roosevelt an ailiance against Japan, and again makes public peace proposals to Britain, offering German support in the liberation of British territorries in the Far East. Churchill would probably refuse the offer, but can Roosevelt afford to do so?

 

[Maburo]

Nazi racial doctrine regards the Japanese as another variety of Untermenschen. The German view of the second Sino-Japanese War is that it is a tribal squabble between sub-human Asiatics. When Pearl Harbor and the Japanese invasion of South East Asia proceed as in OTL, Hitler publically offers Roosevelt an ailiance against Japan, and again makes public peace proposals to Britain, offering German support in the liberation of British territorries in the Far East. Churchill would probably refuse the offer, but can Roosevelt afford to do so?

Intriguing! There is a sizable german descended population in the US that could help push for the US government to accept such an offer