Go Back   Alternate History Discussion Board > Discussion > Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old May 24th, 2009, 08:37 PM
some kind of chimp some kind of chimp is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 130
Fate of Italy, Germany without the French revolution

Exactly what it says on the tin. Say the French Revolution is averted by handwaving (economic reform, no aid in the Revolutionary war, take your pick). So what would the 19th century look like, particularly for Italy and Germany. Without first the trauma of French conquest, and more importantly the resulting nationalism, how would those countries have developed.

Would Italy and Germany have united eventually, or would both have remained divided?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old May 24th, 2009, 10:01 PM
MRig MRig is offline
They say in Harlan County...
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: San Jacinto, República de Tejas
Posts: 461
I don't remember which, but there's a book out there about modern German history that begins with the sentence, "In the beginning, there was Napoleon." If we see something like nationalism, which we probably will sooner or later, it will have a remarkably different character than it did in OTL. When Prussia bests Austria, which is probably unavoidable by the start of the 19th century, we might see something like the German Empire that makes no claims to being German. In this case we may see them leave Alsace-Lorraine alone but grab some territories the Kaiserreich didn't have IOTL. It's also possible that Prussia will revive the HRE, which may still be around if Napoleon hasn't dealt it its deathblow.

I don't know enough about Italy to speculate very well, but perhaps the Hapsburgs will turn to the Peninsula when Prussia knocks them out of the Germanies.

On the other hand we may just see a bigger, badder revolution happen a few decades later. France, as usual, is the best candidate. In this case what happens in Germany and Italy would depend heavily on the political developments between the OTL revolution that didn't happen, and the new revolution that did.
__________________
"[Indian Removal] is oppression with a vengeance."
~David Crockett
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old May 25th, 2009, 12:13 AM
DuQuense DuQuense is offline
Commisioned Officer CSN
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Florida ,CSA
Posts: 1000 or more
Without the French Revolution ?Do Whe still get the 1848 Revolutions?.
__________________
Washington And Jefferson Maed Menee A Joek.
Van Buren Had Tue Pae, Taylor's Frieyeeng Pan Broek.
Lincoln Just Gaat Hoem Graetlee Usttaanishd:
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old May 25th, 2009, 12:56 AM
rcduggan rcduggan is offline
大元帅
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: New England Democratic Republic
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuQuense View Post
Without the French Revolution ?Do Whe still get the 1848 Revolutions?.
Not in the OTL form, as many of the revolts were against the reactionism and new absolutism that many rulers displayed in the aftermath of the French Revolution. If that pivotal event doesn't happen, no slide back to conservativism and reactionary politics, and no 1848 revolutionary wave.
__________________
Currently planning: "All who want revolution, step to the Left." -- Liao Zhongkai's China
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old May 25th, 2009, 02:49 PM
fhaessig fhaessig is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Leiden ( Netherlands )
Posts: 1000 or more
Actually, without the french revolution, you may see the ROYAL french armies coming around for a set of war/conquest.

It's extremely likely, the wars will be shorter and France will likely have some allies ( other than Spain ), and while the armies will be different, french artillery superiority will still be there. The royal french armies would have a lot ( but definitely not all ) of the advantages of the french revolutionary armies and be better on some revolutionary shortcoming. The french Navy, especially is going to be an entierely different beast.

So you delaying the french revolution may actually get you a bigger France when/if the revolution finally comes ( definitely if no serious societal changes ), which could include parts of OTL Germany or Italy or Belgium ( I don't really know where royal france would have fought and what territory exchange deal it may have done )
__________________
Le premier des droits de l'homme c'est la liberté individuelle, la liberté de la propriété, la liberté de la pensée, la liberté du travail.
Jaurès
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old May 25th, 2009, 02:54 PM
Philip Philip is offline
One L only
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by fhaessig View Post
Actually, without the french revolution, you may see the ROYAL french armies coming around for a set of war/conquest.
That seems to create a challenge: Can you get Napoleon at the head of Louis XVI(I)'s armies?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sicarius View Post
Free homesteads for Freedmen in the fabulous new paradise of Alaska!
(note: homesteads may in fact not be paradisaical)
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old May 25th, 2009, 03:03 PM
fhaessig fhaessig is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Leiden ( Netherlands )
Posts: 1000 or more
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip View Post
That seems to create a challenge: Can you get Napoleon at the head of Louis XVI(I)'s armies?
I don't see how. He was barely a noble.

OTOH, nearly the same could be said of Sebastien Le Pestre de Vauban.

We could imagine that Napoleon has a career similar to Vauban, but it will take time before he is Marshall ( I think he will stay general for a long time and only get Marshall if/when he manages some extreme victory ). I don't see him as possible head of all the armies.

OTOH, even if Napoleon manages to become a Marshall, there's the possibility of quite a lot of the revolution/empire general and marshalls ( those that were at least small nobility to begin with ) to get equivalent ranks. And that, I think, is more to the advantage of the french armies than getting Napoleon.

EDIT : For exemple : you could get Berthier ( Or Davout ) as Marshall ( or even commander in chief in extreme case ) and General Bonapartes serving under him. How is that for irony?

Of course, that supposes that Napoleon doesn't end up serving the Ottoman throne, as he nearly did OTL before the revolution.
__________________
Le premier des droits de l'homme c'est la liberté individuelle, la liberté de la propriété, la liberté de la pensée, la liberté du travail.
Jaurès

Last edited by fhaessig; May 25th, 2009 at 03:16 PM..
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:22 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.